Fans of OOTP - eductate me...

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by kq76

You say community interaction is key, but I think you are going about it the wrong way. You are using the word feedback when really what it sounds like what you are doing is taking our input, not exactly our feedback, or getting our feedback but very slowly. Feedback happens when we give you our input, you process it, give us your output, and then we give you our feedback on your output, which you then process again, and the cycle repeats. Say we as in your customers are talking and it sounds like we like A. You think, "great, we'll give them B, which will give them A." However, when we finally find out about B we are like, "no, we actually wanted C to give us A, not B." But by then it's too late for you to give us C. If you gave us your output (I don't mean the actual final game, I mean Markus's thoughts) right away then you'd get our feedback right away and have more time to give us what we really want.

Phew, I need a degree to decipher that

Without wishing to sound rude, we've been using our community for nearly 10 years and so I think we can safely say we have a community model that is working for us

We are taking anything and everything we can out of this community, input, feedback, negative comments, suggestions - it's not a one way street.

We also are able to see the bigger picture and how certain things fit into the plan. I'll say it again, community interaction is key to us.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I was one of the people that said I wouldn't blindly follow Markus anymore, and I mean it. It's not really a matter of why shouldn't I, but more a matter of why should I? Like I said, there are a lot of people who say they would never use H2H and couldn't care about the feature being in the game. What's funny, is that a lof of those same people are saying that the bump from 6 to 6.5 is greater than the bump from 5 to 6, which proves my point. That as it stands right now, 6 wasn't that great an upgrade from ver 5. H2H was the biggest reason why I paid the 25.95 to pre-order the game. I was under the impression that it would be in there, because at the time, there was no question that it wouldn't be. And then, about 2 or 3 weeks before the game cam out, is when Markus said it wouldn't be at release, but at the first major update. Again, with the promise that it would be in there, I continued to hold my pre-order for the game. And it wasn't till September, a full 6 months after I paid for the game that I was told it wouldn't be in there. I feel very ripped off. I like 6 but as many people have said since 6.5 was announced, it's not that big of an upgrade from 5, and don't feel that 6.5 is worth the 35.90 from ver 5.

I cant change the past for you.

What I can do is help shape the future, and I respect your decision. What I hope we can do is present you all the facts on the game, with a demo and allow you to make the choice on purchasing OOTP7

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Well, I certainly can't argue that point - there's never enough hours in the day... but I wish there was a way to provide us feedabck in a way that didn't commit you (like what happened to H2H). Maybe a "short-list" of a few things that "we are considering - no guarantees or confirmation until a later date". At least that would give us something to talk about - something to cross reference with ideas we've suggested. It would seem as long as the proper caveat's were wrapped around it - it would be clear that these items are simply under discussion - yet it would be a communication medium that would keep a lot of folks more closely involved....

To a certain degree hasnt Markus done that with his last development update

[Dargone]

Nice to see a good discussion happening here. I'm looking forward to OOTP7 a lot and I may be one of the biggest FM fans on this board. However, I agree with Tiger Fan that there is far less personal interaction from Markus than in times past. I also don't understand why he continues to get "bashed" about H2H. Perhaps just a little more interaction from Markus as OOTP7 is being worked on?

Thanks, again, for the discussion Marc...

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Anachronism

The semantics you talk about and the the lack of an updated site can be directly linked back to the fact Markus was a one man show.

Markus did not just come out and say he would like it in the game, they said it was in the game. We did not mistake "would like" for "it is". And Markus is not a one man show and hasn't been since I've been around. We asked the mods to take it out or get someone else to.

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

Just to clarify my position on this. I actually felt the sense of community effort had dropped substantially well before SI got involved.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. But you're right, it did seem to go down earlier than that even. Perhaps that was due to how big the community was becoming. But with SI it does feel more like a big company now and like with most big companies it doesn't seem as easy to really communicate with them. There's a message and a reply, but there's no real ongoing dialogue.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Dargone

Perhaps just a little more interaction from Markus as OOTP7 is being worked on?

I feel for Markus, he's working hard. Give him some time and he'll be back. I cant find the cellar key though...

[Comedian2004]

If you want to play H2H, it is possible.

Use XP's remote assistant. It works great. I have done it and it is great.

[Mike D]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I cant change the past for you.

What I can do is help shape the future, and I respect your decision. What I hope we can do is present you all the facts on the game, with a demo and allow you to make the choice on purchasing OOTP7

That's what I plan on doing this time around. I'm not giving up on Markus, but I won't give up my money anymore without giving the game a good look first.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by kq76

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. But you're right, it did seem to go down earlier than that even. Perhaps that was due to how big the community was becoming. But with SI it does feel more like a big company now and like with most big companies it doesn't seem as easy to really communicate with them. There's a message and a reply, but there's no real ongoing dialogue.

Take my email ... marc.duffy AT sigames.com

Email me anytime with a question. I'm available for ongoing dialogue

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

To a certain degree hasnt Markus done that with his last development update

Sure - no doubt we all tried not to slobber over that information I think it's the fact that in today's scenario, Markus is far less available than he was in the past. Most of us that have been around for years (4+ for me) got used to having Markus there to email, PM, or share some time on the board. Most of that is gone now - thus the "feeling" Tiger Fan refers to when he says we feel "out of the loop".

Maybe it's something that can't be avoided - the way of the "new world" but if there was anything I could leave you with from this, it would be that we love being a part of the "team" in some way, and anything that helps that feeling along would be extremely welcomed

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Mike D

That's what I plan on doing this time around. I'm not giving up on Markus, but I won't give up my money anymore without giving the game a good look first.

Thats fine by me! It's exactly how I position it to our soccer game fanbase. Try the demo, if you like it - buy it!

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Sure - no doubt we all tried not to slobber over that information I think it's the fact that in today's scenario, Markus is far less available than he was in the past. Most of us that have been around for years (4+ for me) got used to having Markus there to email, PM, or share some time on the board. Most of that is gone now - thus the "feeling" Tiger Fan refers to when he says we feel "out of the loop".

Perhaps OOTP7 is going to be the biggest and best version of the game ever and so Markus is that busy right now he cant make it here.

Maybe it's something that can't be avoided - the way of the "new world" but if there was anything I could leave you with from this, it would be that we love being a part of the "team" in some way, and anything that helps that feeling along would be extremely welcomed

Dont give up on us yet, it's early days!

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by BigCity

if there was anything I could leave you with from this, it would be that we love being a part of the "team" in some way, and anything that helps that feeling along would be extremely welcomed

Exactly what I was trying to convey. Thanks, Al.

[Dargone]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I feel for Markus, he's working hard. Give him some time and he'll be back. I cant find the cellar key though...

Fair enough. I would much rather have him working oin OOTP7 anyway I have a lot of respect for you SI guys. While your boards can be a little "rough", Marc Vaughan went out of his way to help me a couple of years ago when I was learning about "football" and trying to figure out CM/FM. You have a customer for life and I'm vey excited for OOTP7...

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Dont give up on us yet, it's early days!

Well, I certainly have to stay around long enough to see V7, so I haven't given up yet!

[rem]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Without wishing to sound rude, we've been using our community for nearly 10 years and so I think we can safely say we have a community model that is working for us

On the other hand, Markus first released OOTP about seven years ago - so his approach has worked okay too. Markus removed the "poise" rating from OOTP6 when the community balked at it. He also altered the 6.12 patch when he recieved some unsolicated advice from the community when a beta copy was left in plain sight. Also, the DFA feature was based nearly verbatim on user suggestions.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by remangiii

On the other hand, Markus first released OOTP about seven years ago - so his approach has worked okay too. Markus removed the "poise" rating from OOTP6 when the community balked at it. He also altered the 6.12 patch when he recieved some unsolicated advice from the community when a beta copy was left in plain sight. Also, the DFA feature was based nearly verbatim on user suggestions.

You'll probably be surprised to learn that Markus approach is very similar to ours

I suggest, since it's our newest release you check out the EHM General questions forum http://community.sigames.com/eve/ubb...m/f/6461934525 and see how we operate.

Our community are our biggest fans and also our biggest critics, we listen and we learn from them and if they are not happy with something they'll let us know and we'll react.

it's no different to how you've described!

[kq76]

Originally Posted by BigCity

It's really a personal "thing" Marc. In time past, we actually spent "evenings" in a one-on-one with Markus talking over ideas and concepts. Not all of these were necessarily "features" but we had this feeling like we were contributing - and Markus was there to comment.

Now it seems we talk to ourselves, list thousands of ideas in various threads, but never get any "feedback" from someone that matters as whether ANY of this is being taken seriously. After a while - you get the impression your talking to the wall.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. I imagine a lot of us get great ideas all the time, but I also imagine many are like me and never bother to post them because we feel like no one who has any real influence is going to do anything about them anyways so why bother.

BTW Marc, we do appreciate you coming around and talking to us. Please don't think we don't. It's just that it doesn't seem to happen enough and the fruits of our efforts are not immediately evident. As fast feedback from us is most assuredly important to you, fast feedback from you is important to us.

[Marc Duffy]

More examples of our community interaction :

What's the most annoying things with FM? - http://community.sigames.com/eve/ubb...1/m/1302056131

Take a look round the FM / WWSM forum - http://community.sigames.com/eve/ubb...m&cf=521102691

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by kq76

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. I imagine a lot of us get great ideas all the time, but I also imagine many are like me and never bother to post them because we feel like no one who has any real influence is going to do anything about them anyways so why bother.

BTW Marc, we do appreciate you coming around and talking to us. Please don't think we don't. It's just that it doesn't seem to happen enough and the fruits of our efforts are not immediately evident. As fast feedback from us is most assuredly important to you, fast feedback from you is important to us.

I've listed above some forum exaples from our community. We have the luxury on FM/WWSM that we have a bigger team therefore more people are able to participate in the forums.

EHM has a smaller dev team similar to OOTP. Once we get a test team and internal bugs database up and running it's going to be far easier for myself and others in SI working on the project to get you feedback, and more importantly log your feedback somewhere.