Will we ever get real pitcher fatigue incorporated??

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Keep in mind, you can pitch guys at less than 100%. 100% for a SP really means "is fully rested and ready to pitch a full starter's game". You can pitch a guy at 65% fatigue if you want to limit them to like 50-60 pitches. If you want, you can run a 4-man rotation where each guy only goes like 4-5 innings a game. Just because a guy is pitching on "60%" rest it doesn't actually mean they're only 60% effective, and will be running you an ERA in the 5s. Are they going to pitch as well as if they threw 100 pitches every 5 days? I'd guess probably not.

If you change guys around between SP and RP, you can see what fatigue levels they show. If you have someone who only threw 10-15 pitches a few days ago, sure, as a SP, he'll be listed at like 35%, but as a reliever he'd be 85-90% rested. That means you could run him out there for a bullpen session and he'd be fine, but he's not going to give you a starter's workload.

I think the big reason people seem confused is that, at a fundamental level, SP and RP "fatigue %" values can mean very different things. If a reliever is at 60%, it means he's probably not lasting more than like 3 batters before he gets tired, and I wouldn't bring someone like that in other than like a LOOGY just trying to get out of a jam. But a SP at 60% could actually probably still give you 3-4 innings if you needed it. But the current fatigue model does want to push pitchers to get their full rest in to fully be considered as 100% rested.

Hi Matt.. yeah I've tried they get clobbered in first 2 innings. Seems like they should be able to go 3 or 4 innings in those cases so that's another thing that makes no sense

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by Garlon

The rotation mode and pitcher stamina strategy settings both influence these things.

As Rain King said, the game also has to be set up to prevent exploits. Otherwise, what is being discussed here could result in a team having 9 pitchers all pitch 1 inning per game and appear in 162 games. This would be nonsense.

Rain King is also right about a pitcher preparing for a start. The pitcher does not just walk out onto the field and start throwing. They are even warming up when lineups are announced.

How often do relievers pitch three days in a row in real MLB? They only need to come in to pitch to 3 batters. However, they are giving max effort on every pitch, and they need to recover too.

Not really.because even if he pitches one inning per game his stamina would still slowly decrease game after game. after 7 or 8 games then he'd need 5 days rest or he'll be pitching on less than 100 every single day after that. 0 if you never give him a day off. and even if that were possible , is 1 inning really that effective no matter how good of a pitcher he is? LoL

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by findinghomer

But You're not understanding my problem. In your example they all threw 70 pitches.. okay yeah that's fine a generic 4% fatigue for everyone, small potatoes. I wouldn't have a problem with that... Problem is, say you put a pitch count for 30 because you are short a starting pitcher and you are going to work your bullpen a little harder. That pitcher will throw 30 pitches and still be at 4% the next day Benefit has an 80 stamina. he still can't pitch at 100 for 5 more days. Makes no sense at all. He should be No less than 40% fatigue

They didn't all throw 70 pitches, I was saying they all threw 70+ (70 or more) pitches, and I feel like it makes sense that after a certain point you're going to lose most of your stamina

Originally Posted by findinghomer

But yes things do change as the day's progress but it's this same schedule

2 days after pitching teens
3 days after pitching 30s
4 days after pitching 60s
5 days after pitching 100

This scale goes on and on for every single pitcher in every single league , at every single level , regardless of stamina pitch count or what caliber of pitcher he is. Etc

Again, let me direct you to Kyle Gibson. Can you explain this?



2 days after, 11%
3 days after, 22%
4 days after, 36%
5 days after, 75%

It clearly does not follow your teens, 30s, 60s, 100 method...

--

The 30 pitches, 4% part, however, is dead on. And probably something that should be fixed. There's no way a guy should be 4% rested after 30 pitches. In fact, I tried with a 175 stamina pitcher (70 view) and he was only 70% rested after 4 days. That seems like an issue because even in the low-stamina environment in real life, you'll occasionally see a guy who get pulled really early come back to pitch on 4 days rest and handle a regular workload. OOTP should be able to manage that

So I do get your frustration, it's just the situation is a little more complex then you want to simplify it to

--

Originally Posted by findinghomer

I was wondering if it was by design to prevent some kind of loophole. but I just can't figure out what that loophole is. Maybe if your bullpen is really good, it Causes you not to be able to use your bullpen. But my suspicion is that stamina means absolutely nothing whether you're a starter or a reliever and that's why they do it. Because I have used closers in starting roles as long as they had 3 good pitches and have succeeded just as a normal starter

Stamina does mean something in game though, it just seems to have very little impact not he fatigue %. Higher stamina pitchers are able to throw more pitches before getting tired during the game. You can see this in blowouts:

50 stamina Josiah Gray only got to 83 before the AI pulled him, while 60 stamina Paul Skenes goes to 106




So to me, it seems like the following is true:
1. Stamina impacts how long a pitcher can pitch into a game, and how effective they are as the game goes on
2. Stamina plays a minimal role in fatigue %
3. In a modern or low stamina environment, there is not enough variation in how fatigues SPs are
4. RPs seem to be unaffected by the weirdness that impacts SPs. There is a lot of variation in RPs fatigue based on stamina, how much they pitch, and how frequent they pitch in a 5 day span

Regardless of how this all started, you did bring up a legit issue and I apologize if early on it felt like I was dismissing legitimate concerns. It's just the absolutes that got to me. Fatigue as a whole is not broken, but it does have its limitations with SPs in modern day/low stamina environments. It actually seems to work really well historically, especially in the 40s-60s. Deadball too but aside from me and a few others I doubt many really care about that. I do hope that for '26 they can improve the ability to handle non-traditional pitching staffs without it negatively impacting the traditional pitching styles

[uruguru]

If anyone wants to know how this would play out in the real world, I will refer to Zach Greinke's start on July 7, 2012. (btw, this was the last MLB game I ever attended)

Greinke threw 4 pitches and was ejected for arguing a play at 1B:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...01207070.shtml

He started again the next day, and threw 66 pitches over 3 innings. He might have tossed more innings and more pitches if he had been more effective. BUT -- he was able to throw 66 pitches:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...01207080.shtml

That might be the best true-to-life baseline that we can use for testing this similar behavior in OOTP.

Interestingly, the All-Star Break started after the 2nd game and Greinke started the 1st game after the break, making him the first MLB pitcher in decades to start 3 consecutive games, although it's sort of an asterisk.

[darkcloud4579]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Again, I assume the current fatigue model doesn't allow any pitcher to throw in 162 games in a season?



Right, but 'highly accurate and realistic' results (in the sense of 'historical recreation') is great but might not be what one individual manager/GM wants for their team. Historical recreations are just a small part of what OOTP does, after all.

---

edit:

What if I want Maddux throwing 4-5 IP every 4 days instead of 6.95 IP every 5 days? What if I want Rivera throwing ~110 IP/year instead of being comically misused and wasted as a 60-70 IP guy?

Many of us play the game with specific ways intended to test or break the engine. You should not, however, make a game this way. In your case, the answer is quite simple, you would simply make stamina be like like 2.000 for starters and they'd be able to throw more often and more quickly, you turn fatigue to low and turn injuries off.

Hell, I invented a whole way of playing OOTP without injuries for online leagues years ago.

The exploit part is simple, if pitcher usage doesn't ensure that guys aren't wiped out, the AI will think "oh awesome, I can use him again tomorrow" and then it breaks not only immersion, but whole sims because you have the same 3 guys pitching all the time in a rotation that might be highest rested but has 4-6 guys in it.

It's not about one thing it's the variables. You did reveal the % thing that was probably just cosmetic but only someone playing out games looking across the league using similar settings would notice it, should be tweaked for sure, but I think it was really hard to follow what the gripe here was.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

In your case, the answer is quite simple, you would simply make stamina be like like 2.000 for starters and they'd be able to throw more often and more quickly, you turn fatigue to low and turn injuries off.

Please tell me where the option is to turn Stamina to 2.000 on my team only without accessing or changing the league settings. Then where I can edit Fatigue and Injuries for just my team. I'll wait.

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

You did reveal the % thing that was probably just cosmetic but only someone playing out games looking across the league using similar settings would notice it, should be tweaked for sure, but I think it was really hard to follow what the gripe here was.

I did no such thing, and my 'gripe' has nothing to do with %.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Then where I can edit Fatigue and Injuries for just my team. I'll wait.

Just reset as necessary for the pitcher himself. It is on the bio page of the player editor "Reset Player Fatigue". Do it just for your team, again, as necessary. Injuries are right there too for editing. If you can't see the reset fields to erase or edit the injury it is because it only appears if the player is injured.

imo OOTPD would be insane to redo the entire fatigue model and unbalance so many things with the unintended consequences to do this one special thing for a handful of users. Esp. when the button/fields are right there for you do use based on your particular baseball world.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Just reset as necessary for the pitcher himself. It is on the bio page of the player editor "Reset Player Fatigue". Do it just for your team, again, as necessary. Injuries are right there too for editing. If you can't see the reset fields to erase or edit the injury it is because it only appears if the player is injured.

When I have a knuckleball starting pitcher, I go out of my way to reset his fatigue one day early. The game doesn't quite model this well, and it's the best way to replicate Wilbur Wood if your knuckleballer also happens to be your #1 starter.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Just reset as necessary for the pitcher himself. It is on the bio page of the player editor "Reset Player Fatigue". Do it just for your team, again, as necessary. Injuries are right there too for editing. If you can't see the reset fields to erase or edit the injury it is because it only appears if the player is injured.

imo OOTPD would be insane to redo the entire fatigue model and unbalance so many things with the unintended consequences to do this one special thing for a handful of users. Esp. when the button/fields are right there for you do use based on your particular baseball world.

I'm not looking to *cheat*. I'm looking to make strategic decisions in a strategic game.

[LansdowneSt]

It’s not a cheat. It’s a way to do what you are seeking for your specific desired result without upsetting the foundation of a pitching model that does a fantastic job replicating pitching results across all eras of baseball for many, many other customers. You can micromanage each player’s fatigue in-game with that button. The game allows you do what you asked already in a manner that creates no risk of unbalancing the engine. So, do it or don’t. Make your strategic decisions based on the personalized fatigue settings you make by man. Or don’t.

[MathBandit]

Alright. I'll tell the Commissioners of my online leagues that the official OOTP stance is they should just go in and manually remove the fatigue on my pitchers (and only my pitchers, no one else's) every day while they do their sims. Surely there won't be an issue with that and everyone will agree it's the intended solution!

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Alright. I'll tell the Commissioners of my online leagues that the official OOTP stance is they should just go in and manually remove the fatigue on my pitchers (and only my pitchers, no one else's) every day while they do their sims. Surely there won't be an issue with that and everyone will agree it's the intended solution!

I'm not providing an official response, but I am saying that the entirety of the pitching model ought not bend to satisfy your desires in a particular on-line league for your particular pitching staff. I say that because the consequences across game types for every OOTP user for your desired engine adjustment could be significantly disruptive.

You, your league members, and your commish have to the tools already in the game to accomplish your aim. If the parties fail to reach a consensus, think your idea of a different stamina model for your team's pitchers isn't appropriate, and elect not to use the existing tools at the league's disposal to accomplish your goal, I'm sorry. But imo that's not a good reason for OOTPD to revise the engine's pitching model to get around it.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

You, your league members, and your commish have to the tools already in the game to accomplish your aim.

This is just factually untrue, but obviously this discussion is not productive so I'm done.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

This is just factually untrue, but obviously this discussion is not productive so I'm done.

You asked

Please tell me where the option is to turn Stamina to 2.000 on my team only without accessing or changing the league settings. Then where I can edit Fatigue and Injuries for just my team. I'll wait.

There isn't an option for that, only solution is to reset the pitchers stamina as suggested.

Somehow that turned into

Alright. I'll tell the Commissioners of my online leagues that the official OOTP stance is they should just go in and manually remove the fatigue on my pitchers (and only my pitchers, no one else's) every day while they do their sims. Surely there won't be an issue with that and everyone will agree it's the intended solution!

You're right this isn't a productive discussion since you keep changing whatever it is your upset about.

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

This is just factually untrue, but obviously this discussion is not productive so I'm done.

Landsdowne is one of the most forthright, direct, and helpful members on the forum. He doesn't deserve your obvious contempt. Shame on you.

An apology is owed.

[Garlon]

I just set up a 2018 season with the league strategy set to 5-man rotation and Pitcher Stamina set to Normal.

I set the Cubs to have a 4-man strict rotation.

Hendricks, Darvish, Quintana, and Lester all made 40 GS and each pitched between 197 and 237 innings. Their stamina ratings on the 100 scale were 69, 58, 63, and 65 respectively.

Hendricks even had a 3.57 ERA for the season.

The Cubs went 87-75

You can already do this in the game without issue.

[Garlon]

Test #2 2018 season with Cubs rotation

Pitcher Stamina set to Very Low for the league.

Cubs went 85-77

Hendricks and Darvish made 41 GS and Quintana and Lester made 40 GS. Lester had a 3.30 ERA

IP ranged from 185 to 214.

Cubs had the 6th best Starters ERA



Test #3 Same thing except Pitch Count Limits set to 70 for the 4 SP on the Cubs

Cubs went 95-67 and had the 3rd best Starters ERA in the league.

Hendricks and Darvish again made 41 GS and Quintana and Lester made 40 GS. Hendricks had a 2.82 ERA and IP ranged from 168 to 198 for the rotation.


Again, you can have your team set to a 4-man rotation in a league where the rest of the teams are using a 5-man rotation without any issue. The game already 100% supports this and as you can see the Cubs pitchers performed very well in each of these 3 tests, whether it was Normal stamina, Very Low stamina, or Very Low stamina with a Pitch Count Limit of 70.

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

They didn't all throw 70 pitches, I was saying they all threw 70+ (70 or more) pitches, and I feel like it makes sense that after a certain point you're going to lose most of your stamina



Again, let me direct you to Kyle Gibson. Can you explain this?

Attachment 1035574

2 days after, 11%
3 days after, 22%
4 days after, 36%
5 days after, 75%

It clearly does not follow your teens, 30s, 60s, 100 method...

--

The 30 pitches, 4% part, however, is dead on. And probably something that should be fixed. There's no way a guy should be 4% rested after 30 pitches. In fact, I tried with a 175 stamina pitcher (70 view) and he was only 70% rested after 4 days. That seems like an issue because even in the low-stamina environment in real life, you'll occasionally see a guy who get pulled really early come back to pitch on 4 days rest and handle a regular workload. OOTP should be able to manage that

So I do get your frustration, it's just the situation is a little more complex then you want to simplify it to

--



Stamina does mean something in game though, it just seems to have very little impact not he fatigue %. Higher stamina pitchers are able to throw more pitches before getting tired during the game. You can see this in blowouts:

50 stamina Josiah Gray only got to 83 before the AI pulled him, while 60 stamina Paul Skenes goes to 106

Attachment 1035576
Attachment 1035577

So to me, it seems like the following is true:
1. Stamina impacts how long a pitcher can pitch into a game, and how effective they are as the game goes on
2. Stamina plays a minimal role in fatigue %
3. In a modern or low stamina environment, there is not enough variation in how fatigues SPs are
4. RPs seem to be unaffected by the weirdness that impacts SPs. There is a lot of variation in RPs fatigue based on stamina, how much they pitch, and how frequent they pitch in a 5 day span

Regardless of how this all started, you did bring up a legit issue and I apologize if early on it felt like I was dismissing legitimate concerns. It's just the absolutes that got to me. Fatigue as a whole is not broken, but it does have its limitations with SPs in modern day/low stamina environments. It actually seems to work really well historically, especially in the 40s-60s. Deadball too but aside from me and a few others I doubt many really care about that. I do hope that for '26 they can improve the ability to handle non-traditional pitching staffs without it negatively impacting the traditional pitching styles

I've never seen a pitcher throw 142 pitches lol. That's my explanation. Definitely an anomaly, But even with his anomaly his rest recovery is not that far off of my basis

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by findinghomer

I've never seen a pitcher throw 142 pitches lol. That's my explanation. Definitely an anomaly, But even with his anomaly his rest recovery is not that far off of my basis

June 14, 1974. Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches and struck out 19 batters over 13 innings. Or least that's what people claim, no official count

The "official" record is 172 by Tim Wakefield though only goes as far back as 1988. As recently as 2010 there was a 149 pitch no hitter. Nolan Ryan threw 164 in a 1989 game at age 42.

More unofficial stats include the 26-inning game on May 1, 1920 where Leon Cadore of Brooklyn and Joe Oeschger of Boston pitched an estimated 345 and 319 pitches

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

June 14, 1974. Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches and struck out 19 batters over 13 innings. Or least that's what people claim, no official count

The "official" record is 172 by Tim Wakefield though only goes as far back as 1988. As recently as 2010 there was a 149 pitch no hitter. Nolan Ryan threw 164 in a 1989 game at age 42.

Ryan was a beast. I think it was in 1988 when he was protecting a sore elbow so they put him on a 110-pitch count limit.