1967 Cleveland Guardians?

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by jcard

3. And even more so when those characteristics are ones commonly represented by natural (Lightning, Heat, Hurricanes, etc.) animal (Panthers, Wildcats, Predators, etc.) or abstracted archetypes (Spartans, Warriors, Titans, etc.): aggression, battlefield courage, violence, destruction, etc..

Well how else would you want your team described?
The Pawnee Pushovers or the Pawnee Braves?
Most professional teams are gonna have a name that is symbol of power to them.
I don't think the Nashville Nice Guys would attract many fans.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Well how else would you want your team described?
The Pawnee Pushovers or the Pawnee Braves?
Most professional teams are gonna have a name that is symbol of power to them.
I don't think the Nashville Nice Guys would attract many fans.

Well, there is historical context—generally speaking, Native Americans / First People DC have NOT benefitted from being identified with bellicose natures and cultures.

Also, the straw man notion of a complimentary motive is belied by the fact that these same franchises have never displayed interest or initiative in understanding or inclusion of these alleged honorees who are nevertheless apparently sufficiently distinct to warrant appropriation for branding purposes.

Regardless, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there. What others make of them is their own concern.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by jcard

Well, there is historical context—generally speaking, Native Americans / First People DC have NOT benefitted from being identified with bellicose natures and cultures.

While debatable, one could also contend that they have not been harmed by such identifications, either...

Originally Posted by jcard

... these same franchises have never displayed interest or initiative in understanding or inclusion of these alleged honorees...

Two exceptions - there may be others - to this contention would be the Spokane Indians and Indianapolis Indians, both of which have partnered with local tribes... While one could certain argue that the benefits to Native Americans of such partnerships are minimal, one could also point out that the expectation of potential benefits of any nickname partnership would be minimal (unless it were an outright avertisement, like "New York Geicos" or "San Francisco LiMu's").

At any rate, I suspect that the common sense solutions implemented by the Spokane & Indianapolis Indians (both the teams and people) were partially made possible by the relatively low profile those two cities/teams have compared to, say, the Washington Redskins & Cleveland Indians. IOW, there isn't nearly as much political mileage to squeeze out of the issue in those smaller, lower-profile markets. Which is surely not to suggest that their cause is politically motivated...

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Thats interesting.
To be honest i have never thought of any of the names as derogatory.
I always took the names like Braves and Warriors to be strong and well brave.
I don't even know why a team would name itself after something it did not respect or like.
It would be like the KKK member naming a kid after Martin Luther King.

I guess i could see maybe the Redskins or Chief Wahoo but even then
Redskins never seemed like a joke or something you didn't respect.
Course i grew up in the 70s and 80s so maybe their success had something to do with the respect.
Also i though i read that some Native Americans wanted the name changed back and some didn't like the Indians name changed to Guardians.
Did they even do a vote or was it just the Cleveland owner deciding if the majority was offended?

As for Chief Wahoo yeah its over the top but aren't all mascots?
I never thought it ment Native Americans were dumb any more than i thought Brooklyn Dodger fans were bums.

If Chief Wahoo was real he would be one of the mascots i wouldn't mind hanging out with. Seems rather freindly to me.
I'm not telling any Native American they shouldn't feel offended as that is their right.
Just saying thats not the way i saw Chief Wahoo but i would not argue against them.

I use Indians because that was the team nickname.
When they were the Naps i use Naps and when they change to Guardians i will use Guardians.

The Washington football team used to be based in Boston and, as was really common at the time, the football team took on the name of or a version of a name of the local baseball team (see, the Chicago Bears for the Cubs, the New York Giants for the baseball Giants, and the Detroit Lions for the Tigers… not the Cardinals, though, that was just a coincidence). The 2 Boston teams at the time were the Red Sox and the Braves. They kept the name after moving to Boston and I believe the Native American they had on their helmet from the early 70s onward was added at the behest of a local First Nations activist.

I currently use the Indians name, logo, and uniforms. There’s been some interesting work done with fauxbacks that I might switch to myself, but like I honestly don’t care what you call your own save, just don’t expect OOTP to break their licensing agreement.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Whose copyright laws? Japan's or the United States'?

It's well established under U.S. copyright law that you cannot copyright facts. You can copyright specific arrangements and presentations of facts, but not the facts themselves. Player names and statistics are clearly facts. Team and league names are also facts, but they may also be trademarks. Trademarks are a separate matter.

Maybe this law? International copyright act of 1891. You know we have to kinda follow even world laws not just what the US falls under! Japan or whoever in Japan and Konami own the rights to the league, the players, and the use of the teams! THAT is why OOTP can not use it because they can not get the rights to use copywrite protected IP!

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I currently use the Indians name, logo, and uniforms. There’s been some interesting work done with fauxbacks that I might switch to myself, but like I honestly don’t care what you call your own save, just don’t expect OOTP to break their licensing agreement.

Yeah ootp did what was required and distributed the game with guardians name. I'm guessing thats the end of their obligation.
I highly doubt mlb is gonna go after anyone that uses the Indians name or else retrosheet would have changed the name when the team was known as the Indians.
Plus no one is forcing a person to change the name either.




It just didn't make sense to worry about taking away the option to edit the file if you can change the name in the game.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Thats interesting.
To be honest i have never thought of any of the names as derogatory.
I always took the names like Braves and Warriors to be strong and well brave.
I don't even know why a team would name itself after something it did not respect or like.

I guess i could see maybe the Redskins or Chief Wahoo but even then
Redskins never seemed like a joke or something you didn't respect.
Course i grew up in the 70s and 80s so maybe their success had something to do with the respect.
Also i though i read that some Native Americans wanted the name changed back and some didn't like the Indians name changed to Guardians.
Did they even do a vote or was it just the Cleveland owner deciding if the majority was offended?

As for Chief Wahoo yeah its over the top but aren't all mascots?

I use Indians because that was the team nickname.
When they were the Naps i use Naps and when they change to Guardians i will use Guardians.

Not going off on anything you said, because I have the same views as you. Just giving the history context on the facts.

The Redskins were actually warriors that would rub red ochre on their skin. It's where the whole name actually came from. Fierce warriors that would use the red pigment color to strike fear into their enemies. Many Native American tribes used red ochre because it was also good for bug repellant so they even wore the pigment while hunting.

Any heck, both Wahoo and the Redskin logos were BOTH drawn by Native Americans!

However, THIS is the history being erased. The history of my people who were being honored by these teams, erased becase someone other than Native Americans got offended. One small tribe made a stink while hundreds of other tribes have used the names Redskins and Indians for their school mascots because we seen them as an honor, not a disgrace.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by jcard

Well, there is historical context—generally speaking, Native Americans / First People DC have NOT benefitted from being identified with bellicose natures and cultures.

Also, the straw man notion of a complimentary motive is belied by the fact that these same franchises have never displayed interest or initiative in understanding or inclusion of these alleged honorees who are nevertheless apparently sufficiently distinct to warrant appropriation for branding purposes.

Regardless, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there. What others make of them is their own concern.

I'm sure Padres and Cowboys fans dont get extra benefits because they are a fan of those teams.
Other than for the success and failure of the team.
How many animals benefit from the animal nick names?
Is Chicago donating half its profits to wild life?
Not saying animals care but if you're gonna use them why not help preserve their future.
Do movies always donate profits to people it uses in movies?

I would also say the nick names keep the Native American in mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes seen as racist to not use a Native American name.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Not going off on anything you said, because I have the same views as you. Just giving the history context on the facts.

The Redskins were actually warriors that would rub red ochre on their skin. It's where the whole name actually came from. Fierce warriors that would use the red pigment color to strike fear into their enemies. Many Native American tribes used red ochre because it was also good for bug repellant so they even wore the pigment while hunting.

Any heck, both Wahoo and the Redskin logos were BOTH drawn by Native Americans!

However, THIS is the history being erased. The history of my people who were being honored by these teams, erased becase someone other than Native Americans got offended. One small tribe made a stink while hundreds of other tribes have used the names Redskins and Indians for their school mascots because we seen them as an honor, not a disgrace.

It was just interesting to hear a Native American view.
A lot of times it seemed like it was non Native Americans that were getting offended the most.
I hope that when a nick name is used it is seen with pride on both sides but i know there will probably always be a group that will take something to mean something else or be offended where others of the same race are not.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Yeah ootp did what was required and distributed the game with guardians name. I'm guessing thats the end of their obligation.
I highly doubt mlb is gonna go after anyone that uses the Indians name or else retrosheet would have changed the name when the team was known as the Indians.
Plus no one is forcing a person to change the name either.




It just didn't make sense to worry about taking away the option to edit the file if you can change the name in the game.

You are 100% right! Cause if they took the rights away to edit team names... well kiss fictional setups goodbye, kiss all modding goodbye. "Oh but they could just omit the name like they did to the Japan league". Well there are no legal binds that force them to do so.

But honestly, just the fact that someone has to put up a fight over this and be the offended party in this conversation that this conversation has got to the 3 pages, just because of what others do in their private lives... is more out of hand then having the ability changing the in game name of a historic team back to the name it used in history!

Like I have stated, I am Ojibwa, I am far from offended from ANY team name out there based on my people's history! I find it a huge honor that team names would honor the history of Native Americans, but because of people, who are not Native American, and would rather call us stuff like Indigenous people, which I will state my people are not indigenous to North America and are a mix of ancient people from Central and South America and Han Chinese (so like 2 to 3 thousand years ago), are the ones who are offended more than Natives. I was against the name changes of both teams, I tried to make my voice as loud as it could be on placed like MLB and NFL, I emailed whoever I could but the loud minority are the only people that get the coverage. People like me who do not go with the flow, are silenced.

Anyway, enough with my rant lol

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Like I have stated, I am Ojibwa, I am far from offended from ANY team name out there based on my people's history! I find it a huge honor that team names would honor the history of Native Americans, but because of

Anyway, enough with my rant lol

I don't think its a rant. I had never heard of Ojibwa before.
I'll have to look it up sometime.
Maybe Civ 7 will have Ojibwa in it.

[jksander]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I remain shocked MLB allows OOTP, through the owner goals section, to depict owners as baseball ignorant and socially maladjusted in the sense of "don't confuse me with the facts, just give me want I want."

I've lost count of the number of times I've had a Most Valuable Player winner on my team and the owner's yelling "you haven't signed me a MVP yet!!!" and I'm like "he's right here, moron!"

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by twins_34

I changed mine back to Indians and I am Native American so, I don't care what anyone thinks lol and if you changed it back, I would support you because you have freedoms and I am sorry, history is history and you can never change it and if you try, that's just wrong. We have to remember what was done in the past good or bad.

You're a guardian now. Yer a North American guardian so as not to be confused with the Hindoo guardians back east.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Well how else would you want your team described?
The Pawnee Pushovers or the Pawnee Braves?
Most professional teams are gonna have a name that is symbol of power to them.
I don't think the Nashville Nice Guys would attract many fans.

Hockey team I played for was sponsored by a local candy manufacturer and was called the Fudge Puckers. There was controversy.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I'm sure Padres and Cowboys fans dont get extra benefits because they are a fan of those teams.
Other than for the success and failure of the team.
How many animals benefit from the animal nick names?
Is Chicago donating half its profits to wild life?
Not saying animals care but if you're gonna use them why not help preserve their future.
Do movies always donate profits to people it uses in movies?

I would also say the nick names keep the Native American in mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes seen as racist to not use a Native American name.

Thankfully, as I said, what other people make of my thoughts is their own concern, not mine.

[ignats75]

Deleted

[ignats75]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The Washington football team used to be based in Boston and, as was really common at the time, the football team took on the name of or a version of a name of the local baseball team (see, the Chicago Bears for the Cubs, the New York Giants for the baseball Giants, and the Detroit Lions for the Tigers… not the Cardinals, though, that was just a coincidence). The 2 Boston teams at the time were the Red Sox and the Braves. They kept the name after moving to Boston and I believe the Native American they had on their helmet from the early 70s onward was added at the behest of a local First Nations activist.

I currently use the Indians name, logo, and uniforms. There’s been some interesting work done with fauxbacks that I might switch to myself, but like I honestly don’t care what you call your own save, just don’t expect OOTP to break their licensing agreement.

The Redskins logo of the profile on a shield was designed by the chairman of the Blackfoot Tribe. When the do-gooders who objected and forced the change, they cost the Blackfoot Indian tribe money.

Also, in the legal documents of the Treaty of Greenville, the Native tribes referred to themselves as Redskins. It was not a perjorative term.

[ignats75]

Originally Posted by twins_34

You are 100% right! Cause if they took the rights away to edit team names... well kiss fictional setups goodbye, kiss all modding goodbye. "Oh but they could just omit the name like they did to the Japan league". Well there are no legal binds that force them to do so.

But honestly, just the fact that someone has to put up a fight over this and be the offended party in this conversation that this conversation has got to the 3 pages, just because of what others do in their private lives... is more out of hand then having the ability changing the in game name of a historic team back to the name it used in history!

Like I have stated, I am Ojibwa, I am far from offended from ANY team name out there based on my people's history! I find it a huge honor that team names would honor the history of Native Americans, but because of people, who are not Native American, and would rather call us stuff like Indigenous people, which I will state my people are not indigenous to North America and are a mix of ancient people from Central and South America and Han Chinese (so like 2 to 3 thousand years ago), are the ones who are offended more than Natives. I was against the name changes of both teams, I tried to make my voice as loud as it could be on placed like MLB and NFL, I emailed whoever I could but the loud minority are the only people that get the coverage. People like me who do not go with the flow, are silenced.

Anyway, enough with my rant lol

There is no worse human than a virtue signalling social justice warrior. Oh sorry, social justice fighter.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by jksander

I've lost count of the number of times I've had a Most Valuable Player winner on my team and the owner's yelling "you haven't signed me a MVP yet!!!" and I'm like "he's right here, moron!"

We've had one, yes. What about second MVP?

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by ignats75

There is no worse human than a virtue signalling social justice warrior. Oh sorry, social justice fighter.