23-please explain New Features

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

Don't see this at all. Most complaints I see stem from the fact we don't really know what they've done because they've given us so little detail to go on. I don't blame anyone for withholding judgment on this version and waiting to purchase it - they've done a lousy job of providing information and it's perfectly reasonable to wait until after it comes out to decide if the changes are meaningful or not.

You do you. I've stated my reasons for pre-ordering. What I'm saying is, it's also perfectly reasonable that they aren't showing a lot of screenshots for this version because there's not a lot of cool new features that you can show off with a screenshot or a video clip. Like, the sim engine has been needing to be overhauled for a few versions now and that's exactly the kind of thing you can't really show.

We'll see what it actually mean, I guess. My dog in this fight isn't "people should always pre-order" or whatever, it's "this is what a version where the work that OOTPDev does is under the hood looks like". Hopefully enough people aren't on the "I require new features with every version" train that they'll still reach their sales goals...

[Mr. Marlin]

I pre-ordered as soon al the link posted. But I do agree the rollout this year has been really, REALLY, vague. We know we are getting tutorials. I do not care and will never use them but some folks might. I know there is some stuff for Perfect Team. OK, not my thing but some folks like it. But as for what comes with the single player experience for OOTP 23 there is a lot of ambiguity. But... we'll find out soon

[AdequateRandomGaming]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

My dog in this fight isn't "people should always pre-order" or whatever, it's "this is what a version where the work that OOTPDev does is under the hood looks like".

According to the devs themselves, 3 (I think ?) versions ago was mostly under the hood work and not much flashy features. They came on these very forums, and explained that a lot of work under the hood needed to be done, and that it was unavoidable, and that was the reason for not that many new features. They didn't explain in great detail what that work was. I don't expect them to do it this time either.

It doesn't mean I don't think the game will be great, or that I find overhaul work to be useless (far from it). I'm a bit perplexed said overhaul is needed to be done that quickly after the past one. But, without details, all we can do is speculate. Overhaul means different things to different people. Maybe people are using overhaul when they really mean fine tuning. Overhaul to me is scrapping a lot of the work to replace it with different components.

[tejdog1]

Honestly what they (and they meaning the real world... [derisive barely contained contempt] idiots [/derisive barely contained contempt]) did to the minor leagues is more offensive than anything OOTPs done/will do.

If OOTP had the option to use real world minors (current day) or real world minors (pre-2021), that would make me fall even further in love with the game, by roughly 999,000,000,000%. Because, again, what the morons ruining baseball (led by that ultimate moron manfred) did was pathetic.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by AdequateRandomGaming

According to the devs themselves, 3 (I think ?) versions ago was mostly under the hood work and not much flashy features. They came on these very forums, and explained that a lot of work under the hood needed to be done, and that it was unavoidable, and that was the reason for not that many new features. They didn't explain in great detail what that work was. I don't expect them to do it this time either.

It doesn't mean I don't think the game will be great, or that I find overhaul work to be useless (far from it). I'm a bit perplexed said overhaul is needed to be done that quickly after the past one. But, without details, all we can do is speculate. Overhaul means different things to different people. Maybe people are using overhaul when they really mean fine tuning. Overhaul to me is scrapping a lot of the work to replace it with different components.

It sounds like they're hitting different things. This year, out of Markus' mouth, they rebuilt the sim engine from the ground up. In years past they've spent times on different aspects of the game. I know last year they devoted a bunch of time to improving the trade AI. I don't remember exactly what it was they tweaked around v 19 or 20 but I don't recall it being a deep dive into the simulation engine.

For the sim engine itself though, that's potentially a thing that people won't see a lot of difference in but may have been a very necessary piece of tech debt. That's always a hard proposition: you go in and completely rework a particular facet of this massive system you have, it's often a thankless job. At worst, you get out of it and people complain that it doesn't work like it did before (which, that's kind of the point), and there are new bugs (which do happen of course) and things don't happen the way they wanted them to (which sometimes happens as an artifact of quashing a bug - I worked with a system a couple years ago that I wanted to rework and I came to the table with the issues I had with it, but we decided to keep the old code base in large part because the sales staff had based their packages on a decade plus of the old (wrong) way that the system was doing things). At best, people don't notice it, really, and complain that you spent a lot of time doing "nothing".

The thing is, though, sometimes those big old pieces of tech debt are necessary to move forward. I know Markus kind of famously said he had to skip a version between 6 and 2007 to rewrite everything as it moved from a one or two man operation to something they were employing multiple devs on. If you leave things as is, it can get harder and harder over time to add new features because the more intricate and spaghetti-like the code is, the more issues adding those features creates. And it also gets harder to quash bugs for similar reasons.

So, like I said, I take these "revamp" versions philosophically. Sorry to see that some people here have fallen out of love with the game but it happens. For many of us, I feel like complaining about not getting some shiny new feature out of a game we pay $36 for a thousand plus hours of gameplay a year is a bit much.

[Sweed]

I'm not seeing much difference in the release between 23 and 22 or 21. I thought quite a bit was talked about. May not be up everybody's alley but.. that's no different than any year.

1.Sortable team stats. May not be sexy to some but it opens up a whole new area to be able to see and analyze what is going on in your league.

2.Multiple player deals on the shop screen. Users have asked for this kind of thing for a long time.

3.Dress up the action on the field with alternates and pants. I know that pants sounds silly but it is what many have asked for and it was needed.

4.Throw in redoing the sim engine and IMHO we have a very nice list of features. To me this is a "see it in action" feature, whether in on field action, or statistical results.

5.New rules and options... ties, playoff formats, cba, and more(?).

I'd agree with Syd, that some of the dissatisfaction comes because a lot of things are "under the hood". The things people have asked for vocally at the expense of new features.


Add in that online got a nice security feature. I'll never use it but I don't count it as a "non-feature".

PT? I'll never play either but for those that do there was work done there too.

Tutorials? First thought was "I'll never use them but it's nice for new users". Then I heard them described and, while I will disable after a quick look, I'm not so sure there won't be nuggets in there for us vets. Well see. But surely, even if one doesn't see themselves using this, you can't think this was a small thing to add? Maybe it will even fix the "why isn't that in the manual?" or "why isn't that describes with more detail?" complaints many vets here have asked about for years?

I'm also of the opinion that many that claim "it's the same game version to version" don't dig into the game enough to notice what has been done. They've added so many ways to parse the stats to get a deeper\better look into your league and players. I read posts with each new version and it's obvious the poster hasn't dug into all of the new options for views and filters.
But it's the same game as last year?

I see vets list off things that they see that are "new for this year" only to be shown that feature has been there for 2-3 years. I see vets say "why doesn't OOTP let me do x, y, or z in my league? That needs to be added" only to be shown they already can. And yet we see eye rolls at the thought of a tutorial? OOTP is a huge game and I'm think most of us still find things or ways to do things we didn't know were there.


Feel free to buy or wait, it's up to each of us how to spend our money.
It's just the notion not much had been done that makes me think "huh"? Hell, someone posted is should be called v22.5? Really?

I feel very good about what we're getting with v23. Can't wait for the Friday release on Steam.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by Sweed

. . .pants. I know that pants sounds silly but it is what many have asked for and it was needed.

There it is again - pants!

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by tejdog1

If OOTP had the option to use real world minors (current day) or real world minors (pre-2021), that would make me fall even further in love with the game, by roughly 999,000,000,000%. Because, again, what the morons ruining baseball (led by that ultimate moron manfred) did was pathetic.

I liked the old pre 2021 minor league system too so I simply recreated it. It was not that difficult to do. I'll do the same with new universe for 23.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

It sounds like they're hitting different things. This year, out of Markus' mouth, they rebuilt the sim engine from the ground up. In years past they've spent times on different aspects of the game. I know last year they devoted a bunch of time to improving the trade AI. I don't remember exactly what it was they tweaked around v 19 or 20 but I don't recall it being a deep dive into the simulation engine.

For the sim engine itself though, that's potentially a thing that people won't see a lot of difference in but may have been a very necessary piece of tech debt. That's always a hard proposition: you go in and completely rework a particular facet of this massive system you have, it's often a thankless job. At worst, you get out of it and people complain that it doesn't work like it did before (which, that's kind of the point), and there are new bugs (which do happen of course) and things don't happen the way they wanted them to (which sometimes happens as an artifact of quashing a bug - I worked with a system a couple years ago that I wanted to rework and I came to the table with the issues I had with it, but we decided to keep the old code base in large part because the sales staff had based their packages on a decade plus of the old (wrong) way that the system was doing things). At best, people don't notice it, really, and complain that you spent a lot of time doing "nothing".

The thing is, though, sometimes those big old pieces of tech debt are necessary to move forward. I know Markus kind of famously said he had to skip a version between 6 and 2007 to rewrite everything as it moved from a one or two man operation to something they were employing multiple devs on. If you leave things as is, it can get harder and harder over time to add new features because the more intricate and spaghetti-like the code is, the more issues adding those features creates. And it also gets harder to quash bugs for similar reasons.

So, like I said, I take these "revamp" versions philosophically. Sorry to see that some people here have fallen out of love with the game but it happens. For many of us, I feel like complaining about not getting some shiny new feature out of a game we pay $36 for a thousand plus hours of gameplay a year is a bit much.

Good explanation of technical debt, why it is useful or even necessary sometimes and what some of the early issues may be.

[crowhop]

Originally Posted by David Watts

That new ratings balances for historical players caught my eye as well. Would love to know what it means. Would love an explanation. Hoping it's more than just putting new and improved taste on the can.

I'm interested in this as well. I'm playing through with the Padres franchise and in 1982 Tony Gwynn comes up in the draft as a guy who'll hit .400 that first year. All of the major star rookies come out fully formed, really. Curious to see how that development cycle changes.

[Bobfather]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I'm not seeing much difference in the release between 23 and 22 or 21. I thought quite a bit was talked about. May not be up everybody's alley but.. that's no different than any year.

1.Sortable team stats. May not be sexy to some but it opens up a whole new area to be able to see and analyze what is going on in your league.

2.Multiple player deals on the shop screen. Users have asked for this kind of thing for a long time.

3.Dress up the action on the field with alternates and pants. I know that pants sounds silly but it is what many have asked for and it was needed.

4.Throw in redoing the sim engine and IMHO we have a very nice list of features. To me this is a "see it in action" feature, whether in on field action, or statistical results.

5.New rules and options... ties, playoff formats, cba, and more(?).

I'd agree with Syd, that some of the dissatisfaction comes because a lot of things are "under the hood". The things people have asked for vocally at the expense of new features.


Add in that online got a nice security feature. I'll never use it but I don't count it as a "non-feature".

PT? I'll never play either but for those that do there was work done there too.

Tutorials? First thought was "I'll never use them but it's nice for new users". Then I heard them described and, while I will disable after a quick look, I'm not so sure there won't be nuggets in there for us vets. Well see. But surely, even if one doesn't see themselves using this, you can't think this was a small thing to add? Maybe it will even fix the "why isn't that in the manual?" or "why isn't that describes with more detail?" complaints many vets here have asked about for years?

I'm also of the opinion that many that claim "it's the same game version to version" don't dig into the game enough to notice what has been done. They've added so many ways to parse the stats to get a deeper\better look into your league and players. I read posts with each new version and it's obvious the poster hasn't dug into all of the new options for views and filters.
But it's the same game as last year?

I see vets list off things that they see that are "new for this year" only to be shown that feature has been there for 2-3 years. I see vets say "why doesn't OOTP let me do x, y, or z in my league? That needs to be added" only to be shown they already can. And yet we see eye rolls at the thought of a tutorial? OOTP is a huge game and I'm think most of us still find things or ways to do things we didn't know were there.


Feel free to buy or wait, it's up to each of us how to spend our money.
It's just the notion not much had been done that makes me think "huh"? Hell, someone posted is should be called v22.5? Really?

I feel very good about what we're getting with v23. Can't wait for the Friday release on Steam.

Who needs tutorials when we have several people asking the same question on the forum.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Tutorials? First thought was "I'll never use them but it's nice for new users". Then I heard them described and, while I will disable after a quick look, I'm not so sure there won't be nuggets in there for us vets. Well see. But surely, even if one doesn't see themselves using this, you can't think this was a small thing to add?

I also guarantee that all the people complaining about tutorials and who will disable them before seeing them (or disable them as soon as the first one pops up) are also the long-time players who would MOST benefit from them.

I agree with the rest of your comment as well, but wanted to specifically highlight this since anyone who thinks there is nothing they can learn from an in-game tutorial is someone who has a lot to still learn about OOTP.

[PSUColonel]

I am a big proponent of YouTube tutorial and strategy videos. I think if a OOTPD sanctioned person could regularly host them weekly it would be a the greatest benefit.

[Pelican]

I don't take the pre-release hype too seriously in any year. Of course OOTP has to promote the updates and changes, but I suspect most of it is too dense to easily explain without descending [ascending? - no judging!] into code. I know little about programming except that it is hard to translate into rhetoric. I mean, that's kind of the point. For me, the price point is so low, and combined with my FOMO, I have pre-ordered and can't wait to just play with 23. I understand that could make me something of a beta tester, to the extent there are bugs; but I doubt anything could happen that couldn't be quickly corrected with a patch or update. I don't mind maybe helping to sort that out. And personally, I love finding out about improvements when they crop up during game play. For example, I'll be looking to see "new ratings balances for historical players" in my sim seasons past. Strikes me as the kind of thing you appreciate (if at all) in retrospect. Kind of nod your head and think "they got that right".

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

I liked the old pre 2021 minor league system too so I simply recreated it. It was not that difficult to do. I'll do the same with new universe for 23.

Same. And always a few franchises shifting to places I've been around the country that struck me a baseball-friendly.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I am a big proponent of YouTube tutorial and strategy videos. I think if a OOTPD sanctioned person could regularly host them weekly it would be a the greatest benefit.

I'm hopeful that Alex will make similar videos for the start of OOTP23 that he did in the last few months of OOTP22.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I don't take the pre-release hype too seriously in any year. Of course OOTP has to promote the updates and changes, but I suspect most of it is too dense to easily explain without descending [ascending? - no judging!] into code. I know little about programming except that it is hard to translate into rhetoric.

Programming can be weird. I just had a planning session today where there was a lot of this...

Product: "This should be pretty easy."
Us: "Yeah, that's going to take most of the sprint for one person to complete because of X, Y, and Z."

Product: "I know this is a big ask, but..."
Us: "Yeah, that'll take us like a day."

That's nothing against non-programmers; it's just very hard to estimate how long a task might take unless you are experienced enough in writing code to have at least a general idea of how you'll write it (and knowledge of the system you're in is pretty huge too - some very simple cosmetic thing might take 10 minutes to do in a well-written, streamlined system but could take a lot longer in something that's got styling interfering with styling).

I mean, that's kind of the point. For me, the price point is so low, and combined with my FOMO, I have pre-ordered and can't wait to just play with 23. I understand that could make me something of a beta tester, to the extent there are bugs; but I doubt anything could happen that couldn't be quickly corrected with a patch or update. I don't mind maybe helping to sort that out.

Here TBH, say whatever else you'll say about OOTP, they tend not to have particularly buggy releases, even in beta. There will probably be a thing or two someone will find in the open beta because by definition more eyes = more chances to find bugs, but it hasn't been crazy and bug-ridden for a while and I'm guessing that's because they have a fairly robust QA system built in.

Of course, this could always be the year it's buggy. They usually don't have to push back the release date either and sometimes "we need another two months" turns into "we'll make do with another month" but who knows?

And personally, I love finding out about improvements when they crop up during game play. For example, I'll be looking to see "new ratings balances for historical players" in my sim seasons past. Strikes me as the kind of thing you appreciate (if at all) in retrospect. Kind of nod your head and think "they got that right".

I'm really interested in seeing how Movement as well as pitch framing is handled. Also the pitch-by-pitch mode, although I'll only be seeing that by proxy, as I tend not to dive deep into individual strategies when I'm playing out games.

[discodude5]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

I would also add that this iteration is a bit like a prospect we haven't gotten a lot of detailed scouting information about yet.

From the teasers though I think this rookie has some promising tools and might just turn into a superstar. And yeah, might be a bust too. But I'm feeling optimistic.

(And I have never played PT, so that's not the source of my optimism.)

Ha ha, I like the prospect comparison.
We need the pre order guys to do a little scouting and update. Luckily, some of them are LEGENDARY.

[UltimateAverageGuy]

I preordered because of track record....all the talk of no hype is just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Support the company and stop crying about first world problems

[Marinersfan51]

I really miss the old road to release series and when the developers were actually attempting to market the game and explain the value of the new version. I don't know what the new features are in this version and I have had to actively search to find any of the announcements and even then they are just announcements of upcoming trailers and twitch streams that will allegedly reveal new features.

Maybe I am just an old man yelling at clouds, but I miss when there would be 5 stickyed posts at the top of the forums with in depth explanations of the new features and overhalls that would get me excited for the game. Instead there is 1/10th that info out there scattered across a bunch of different platforms. Ever since they sold, it feels like the entire focus is on PT and twitch streams. There may be just as much focus being put on the actual game, but they are doing their damnedest to hide it.

This is the first time that I haven't preordered in 12 years and I am completely ambivalent to the new version, I probably will just wait until it goes on sale in a few months. I have been a day one preorder for a decade, but I really haven't been able to figure out if this is anything more than a FIFA/Madden/2k roster update game at this point.