Another wrestling death "coincidence"

[Raderick]

Originally Posted by TC Dale

Idiotic? Yeah. Vince and the WWE aren't the only organization that had these issues. But he is the only game in town, and that means he gets all the attention. If this was fair, they would bring in the WCW, AWA, and other regional organizations to answer the charges alongside Vinne Mac.

Will it happen? Probably not, because it is IDIOTIC. And that is the problem!

It's really hard to question organizations that do not exist and haven't for many years. I'd rather see them look at the here and now by bringing in the heads of TNA, ROH, PWG and some of the top indie promotions and ask them what they are doing to prevent steroid use in their organization.

The only real way of deterring steroids use is a national governing body that oversees professional wrestling, MMA, boxing and any other major un-armed combat sports. Meltzer even suggested that if, say, California, Florida, New York, Illinois and Texas (the five top wrestling markets) started sanctioning pro wrestling, Vince would have no choice than to allow them to drug test and to allow them to suspend/fine their talent if they fail a test, just like if they catch a MMA fighter doing illegal drugs.

[APujols5]

Originally Posted by Raderick

But Adams was with the WWF when steroids were being taken like candy.

The crap doesn't take it's toll while you take them, it's after you take them and then add a few years is when you'll see the after-effects.

You are correct but The WWE has stepped up to the plate and is trying to clean up their wrestlers. Look at the fact that they might have just recently saved MVP's life by finding the heart defect that had been not been found before.Had Adams been a part of the current WWE, he would have had the chance to get any and all medical help that would have been availab le to him. Vince is the first one to try and help his employees. Perfect example being Joey (Mercury) Matthews who had been part of the MNM tag team. He was on all kinds of drugs (Not Steroids though), sent to rehab on the WWE's dime. came back, and Yes he did relapse and forced his firing by verbally assaulting Vince's own daughter. But yet was sent back to rehab, again on the WWE's dime despite being fired. and Just this past week was rehired as a trainer for their developmental company, Ohio Valley Wrestling. It just drives me crazy for everyone to sound off in the media like Vince is the devil/

[APujols5]

Dola, Plus everyone seems to look past the fact that no one held a gun to these wrestlers heads and said you must take steroids.They as individuals made the choice to take them. So they are paying the price, Why should VInce have to pay any price?

[Raderick]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Dola, Plus everyone seems to look past the fact that no one held a gun to these wrestlers heads and said you must take steroids.They as individuals made the choice to take them. So they are paying the price, Why should VInce have to pay any price?

Because Vince sets the standards when it comes to making wrestlers big by default of his company being #1 in the world. It's been proven that when in doubt, Vince goes to the big men to draw. When you see the WWF/E drawing with wrestlers with physics of outrageous proportions (the Cenas, the Lashleys, the Triple Hs), don't you think that lets the indie wrestlers know that these are the things that Vince is looking for in a wrestler? It cannot be any more obvious.

I will give you one prime example of this. Back in 1997, the original plan for WrestleMania 13 was a re-match of Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart for the WWF Championship. Michaels didn't want to job (wrestling term for losing) to Bret (Bret jobbed to Michaels at WrestleMania 12 with the intention of Shawn returning the favor one year later), so he forfeited the belt. (Bret ended up winning the belt three days later). Vince could have easily booked Bret and Steve Austin (the Royal Rumble Winner and the de facto #1 contender for the belt by way of that win) for the WWF Championship, and could have drew huge. The next night, Bret lost the belt to Psyco Sid (6-9, 340) and then booked The Undertaker (6-10, 330) to co-headline with Sid at WrestleMania. Bret and Austin did end up happening but got mid-card status (the match itself is one of the greatest in WWF/E, if not in wrestling history).

[Raderick]

Originally Posted by APujols5

You are correct but The WWE has stepped up to the plate and is trying to clean up their wrestlers. Look at the fact that they might have just recently saved MVP's life by finding the heart defect that had been not been found before.Had Adams been a part of the current WWE, he would have had the chance to get any and all medical help that would have been availab le to him. Vince is the first one to try and help his employees. Perfect example being Joey (Mercury) Matthews who had been part of the MNM tag team. He was on all kinds of drugs (Not Steroids though), sent to rehab on the WWE's dime. came back, and Yes he did relapse and forced his firing by verbally assaulting Vince's own daughter. But yet was sent back to rehab, again on the WWE's dime despite being fired. and Just this past week was rehired as a trainer for their developmental company, Ohio Valley Wrestling. It just drives me crazy for everyone to sound off in the media like Vince is the devil/

Pertaining to MVP, had all of this stuff about Congress and Benoit never happened, it would never get a big article and headline status on wwe.com. He would just be doing interviews until he was fit to wrestle in the ring again.

You are overall correct however on the WWE doing a good job on detecting these things. But at the same time, the WWE has sent wrestlers to rehab well before Guerrero died and the wellness policy went to effect. Sean Waltman, Percy Pringle, Jeff Hardy (though he refused and was released) were all offered rehab before 2005.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

I can't take any doctor seriously that would say anabolic steroids are not harmful and won't cause someone's death if they are abused.

Why is that?

Scientific studies have found the negative impacts of steroids are not that serious. That's why it's only schedule III and is widely used in medicine.

Alzado's doctor only said Alzado did not die because of steroids anyway. He didn't say people can't die from steroids.


Still, you can't really find any scientific proof that steroids kill people.

[Raderick]

For what it's worth, Congress is now going after both TNA and the National Wrestling Alliance, requesting drug program details. I wonder what their responses will be...

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Still, you can't really find any scientific proof that steroids kill people.

Here, chew on a few facts regarding steroid's negative effects upon the body. I believe several of these examples can lead to death. Go ahead and argue if you'd like, but I can site a number of cases where people died from these problems. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that steroids lead to early death in many cases. As you said yourself, steroids act as an enabler...using them to enable the body to develop a wide range of side effects can lead to death. I'm not sure why or how you could even try to argue...or maybe you're not arguing, but the vortex is beginning to eddy?

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html

Health Hazards
The major side effects from abusing anabolic steroids can include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling. In addition, there are some gender-specific side effects:
For men-shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer.

For women-growth of facial hair, male-pattern baldness, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the clitoris, deepened voice.

For adolescents-growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. This means that adolescents risk remaining short for the remainder of their lives if they take anabolic steroids before the typical adolescent growth spurt.


In addition, people who inject anabolic steroids run the added risk of contracting or transmitting HIV/AIDS or hepatitis, which causes serious damage to the liver.

Scientific research also shows that aggression and other psychiatric side effects may result from abuse of anabolic steroids. Many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but researchers report that extreme mood swings also can occur, including manic-like symptoms leading to violence. Depression often is seen when the drugs are stopped and may contribute to dependence on anabolic steroids. Researchers report also that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.1

Research also indicates that some users might turn to other drugs to alleviate some of the negative effects of anabolic steroids. For example, a study of 227 men admitted in 1999 to a private treatment center for dependence on heroin or other opioids found that 9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids.2

And the shrinking of your testicles may not worry you, but it scares the bejesus out of me.

[AnotherAlias]

dola,

http://sportsci.org/encyc/anabsteref...stereff.html#1

Liver Function

AS may exert a profound adverse effect on the liver. This is particularly true for orally administered AS. The parenterally administered AS seem to have less serious effects on the liver. Testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate and other injectable anabolic steroids seem to have little adverse effects on the liver. However, lesions of the liver have been reported after parenteral nortestosterone administration, and also occasionally after injection of testosterone esters. The influence of AS on liver function has been studied extensively. The majority of the studies involve hospitalized patients who are treated for prolonged periods for various diseases, such as anemia, renal insufficiency, impotence, and dysfunction of the pituitary gland. In clinical trials, treatment with anabolic steroids resulted in a decreased hepatic excretory function. In addition, intra hepatic cholestasis, reflected by itch and jaundice, and hepatic peliosis were observed. Hepatic peliosis is a hemorrhagic cystic degeneration of the liver, which may lead to fibrosis and portal hypertension. Rupture of a cyst may lead to fatal bleeding.

Benign (adenoma's) and malign tumors (hepatocellular carcinoma) have been reported. There are rather strong indications that tumors of the liver are caused when the anabolic steroids contain a 17-alpha-alkyl group. Usually, the tumors are benign adenoma's, that reverse after stopping with steroid administration. However, there are some indications that administration of anabolic steroids in athletes may lead to hepatic carcinoma. Often these abnormalities remain asymptomatic, since peliosis hepatis and liver tumors do not always result in abnormalities in the blood variables that are generally used to measure liver function.

AS use is often associated with an increase in plasma activity of liver enzymes such as aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), alkaline phosphatase (AP), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), and gamma glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT). These enzymes are present in hepatocytes in relatively high concentrations, and an increase in plasma levels of these enzymes reflect hepatocellular damage or at least increased permeability of the hepatocellular membrane.

In longitudinal studies of athletes treated with anabolic steroids, contradictory results were obtained on the plasma activity of liver enzymes (AST, AST, LDH, GGT, AP). In some studies, enzymes were increased, whereas in others no changes were found. When increases were found, the values were moderately increased and normalized within weeks after abstinence. There are some suggestions that the occurrence of hepatic enzyme leakage, is partly determined by the pre-treatment condition of the liver. Therefore, individuals with abnormal liver function appear to be at risk.

Serum Lipoproteins and the Cardiovascular System

AS also affect the cardiovascular system and the serum lipid profile. Relatively few studies have been done to investigate the effect of anabolic steroids on the cardiovascular system. No longitudinal studies have been conducted on the effect of anabolic steroids on cardiovascular morbidity and mortality.

Most of the investigations have been focused on risk factors for cardiovascular diseases, and in particular the effect of anabolic steroids on blood pressure and on plasma lipoproteins. In most cross-sectional studies serum cholesterol and triglycerides between drug-free users and non-users is not different. However, during anabolic steroid use total cholesterol tends to increase, while HDL-cholesterol demonstrates a marked decline, well below the normal range. Serum LDL-cholesterol shows a variable response: a slight increase or no change. The response of total cholesterol seems to be influenced by the type of training that is done by the athlete. When a great deal of the exercise consists of aerobic exercise, the increasing effect of AS is counterbalanced by an exercise-induced increasing effect, which may result in a net decline in total cholesterol. Aerobic training does not seem to be able to offset the steroid-induced decline in HDL-cholesterol and its subfractions HDL-2, and HDL-3.

The precise effect of anabolic steroids on LDL-cholesterol is unknown yet. It appears that anabolic steroids influence hepatic triglyceride lipase (HTL) and lipoprotein lipase (LPL). Males usually have higher levels of HTL, while females have higher LPL activity. HTL is primarily responsible for the clearance of HDL-cholesterol, while LPL takes care of cellular uptake of free fatty acids and glycerol. Androgens and anabolic steroids stimulate HTL, presumably resulting in decreased serum levels of HDL-cholesterol.

The effect of anabolic steroids on triglycerides is not well known. It is suggested that relatively low doses do not affect the serum triglyceride levels, while it cannot be excluded that higher doses elicit an increase.

No unanimity exists about the influence of anabolic steroids on arterial blood pressure. The response is most probably dose dependent. There is some data suggesting that high doses increase diastolic blood pressure, whereas low doses fail to have a significant effect on diastolic blood pressure. Increases in diastolic blood pressure normalize within 6-8 weeks after abstinence from anabolic steroids. It appears that repeated intermittent use of anabolic steroids does not affect diastolic blood pressure during drug free periods.

[Melo]

Vince McMahon being portrayed as a benevolent patriarch of the WWE, makes my head spin. McMahon admitted to steroid use himself and even if he never once said he expected anyone to take steroids, he did set up competition amongst his stable to take them. The biggest, strongest, best wrestlers became the biggest stars and the boss himself set the example. I remember Vince McMahon when he first started getting into the business. He might have weighed all of 150 lbs. When the boss is doing it, it's implied that the workers should do it too. Don't do it and you lose the better roles, lose the better roles, lose your popularity, lose your popularity and you lose your job.

I also don't want to hear how much Mcmahon cares about his wrestlers. A majority of them are only as important as the amount of $$$$ they generate for him. But, to be fair, that's no different than a lot of businessmen. Even the NFL was recently fronted by doctor who still claimed that effects of multiple concussions was minimal even as emerging research was showing that it's long term effects could be quite devestating. What will be interesting to see is if the WWE takes the current research into account and makes a sincere effort to look out for the long term welfare of it's performers.

Finally, as said before, the WWE has positioned itself as the only dog on the block so it's only natural that it be the catchall for all of professional wrestling sins, now and the past. The WWE IS professional wrestling so any wrestler will be associated with them. No one is going to bother to look up who wrestled with what alliance back in the day. I think that's one of the prices of fame.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Calling someone by their first name has an air of familiarity and/or friendship. It's just not polite to go around calling random people by their first name.

Lighten up Francis. We use first names through out the hospital where I work whether you know the person or not.

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Also on a personal note, Don't use my name off handed like that like you are my friend. I don't like you one bit and never will.

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the beddy-pie this morning. Come on, let me see that smile. I think I see it. There it is!

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

dola,

http://sportsci.org/encyc/anabsteref...stereff.html#1

You can read your links yourself. Right now the best scientists have established are "strong indications" and "risk factors".

Eating bacon is a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Melo

Vince McMahon being portrayed as a benevolent patriarch of the WWE, makes my head spin. McMahon admitted to steroid use himself and even if he never once said he expected anyone to take steroids, he did set up competition amongst his stable to take them. The biggest, strongest, best wrestlers became the biggest stars and the boss himself set the example. I remember Vince McMahon when he first started getting into the business. He might have weighed all of 150 lbs. When the boss is doing it, it's implied that the workers should do it too. Don't do it and you lose the better roles, lose the better roles, lose your popularity, lose your popularity and you lose your job.

I also don't want to hear how much Mcmahon cares about his wrestlers. A majority of them are only as important as the amount of $$$$ they generate for him. But, to be fair, that's no different than a lot of businessmen. Even the NFL was recently fronted by doctor who still claimed that effects of multiple concussions was minimal even as emerging research was showing that it's long term effects could be quite devestating. What will be interesting to see is if the WWE takes the current research into account and makes a sincere effort to look out for the long term welfare of it's performers.

Finally, as said before, the WWE has positioned itself as the only dog on the block so it's only natural that it be the catchall for all of professional wrestling sins, now and the past. The WWE IS professional wrestling so any wrestler will be associated with them. No one is going to bother to look up who wrestled with what alliance back in the day. I think that's one of the prices of fame.

It's really hard to tell anything from the public image of anything WWE. The public image of wrestling overall is not that good anyway. If I were Vince McMahon, I'd like to squeeze out as much profit from WWE before I retire, and get my kids and grandkids out of the industry and into something like investment banking with all the money.

[Russ]

I don't think anybody is arguing about the negative effects about steroids. It's common knowledge about the side effects. The problem is of liability. You could probably say Vince had a hand in it by pushing the big monsters through the 80's and 90's and even today (Batista, Khali, Taker). A guy like HHH or John Cena is where I see the problem. HHH was a relatively small guy when he first came to the WWF and didn't get a huge push until he got seriously big. I remember when he came off his first quad injury and he showed up at the end of RAW. I couldn't believe how enormous he got. Cena is getting bigger by the week almost. As long as big guys continue to be popular and make the big money in wrestling, guys are going to do steroids. I doubt Vince encourages it literally, but through his champs he's basically telling guys that if you want to be a star you need to get large. Batista is ridiculous. There's no way that's natural. As long as steroid use is rewarded with a big payday, in baseball and wrestling, guys are going to do it.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Russ

As long as steroid use is rewarded with a big payday, in baseball and wrestling, guys are going to do it.

I think NFL is a better example of this. Supposedly NFL has been testing steroids for a long time, and yet you still got star players tested positive.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

You can read your links yourself. Right now the best scientists have established are "strong indications" and "risk factors".

Eating bacon is a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases.

Or smoking is a risk factor for cancer.

[APujols5]

Originally Posted by ctorg

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the beddy-pie this morning. Come on, let me see that smile. I think I see it. There it is!

Nope was/is as happy and cheerful as always. I just absolutely cant stand TC. Never have, never will. He's childish and 2-faced.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Nope was/is as happy and cheerful as always. I just absolutely cant stand TC. Never have, never will. He's childish and 2-faced.

And, you are in the wrong forum for this kind of nonsense. Off-topic is the only forum where personal insults are even mildly tolerated.

[Frank Nitti]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

And, you are in the wrong forum for this kind of nonsense. Off-topic is the only forum where personal insults are even mildly tolerated.

that stuff don't fly in o/t either. i once saw a guy get beat senseless for an insult in o/t. i had not thing to do with the beating though and in fact now that i think about it didn't really see anything. it's just something i heard about from some guy i know over there. i forget his name though