And the MLB 2020 season negotiations begin

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by thehef

Count me as one who is hopeful the season can be salvaged, one way or another. If it has to be cancelled, the players should be blamed for not following the rules (absent any contradicting evidence), but Manfred and the MLB should be blamed for a) thinking the players would follow the rules, and b) therefore not going the "bubble" route. (That said, it's too early to say that the NBA's and NHL's bubble plans are a success; one outbreak in a bubble could pretty quickly crash the whole thing.)

At any rate, if the baseball season is cancelled I'm fine with Manfred getting ALL the blame - deserved or not - given the way he completely bungled (and continues to bungle) the Astros scandal.

I'm down with the idea that the players are to blame for their actions, because they are grown men after all, but I also think the league hasn't done enough to enforce the rules both sides agreed on.

[Syd Thrift]

Individual players are certainly to blame for putting themselves in harm’s way. I don’t really blame, for instance, the other Marlins who got infected by clubhouse contact, or really even their decision to play when they knew a couple teammates were sick (the latter because if you ask a ballplayer if he wants to play, he’ll say yes unless his arm is literally unattached, and even then only if it’s his throwing arm). And I certainly don’t blame “the players” as a group for the situation we’re in.

[cephasjames]

The Marlins players' decision to play despite knowing that some of their teammates had tested positive is dumb. The many players on many teams who have decided to not uphold the safety agreement that they signed onto by hugging each other and high fiving, etc in the dugout is dumb. I agree that it's not The Players as a monolith because putting any group as a monolith is dumb, but all of the players who make dumb choices do so as representative of The Players.

[Syd Thrift]

The players should never been placed into a position to make medical decisions. That was a straight up dumb move by Don Mattingly.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The players should never been placed into a position to make medical decisions. That was a straight up dumb move by Don Mattingly.

I don't disagree with the bold, but the players are grown men, they cannot go blameless in the matter. "Players just want to play" is no excuse for them to get off without blame.

[Syd Thrift]

It kind of is, though, for reasons I’ve already stated here. Also, last I checked, players are not medical personnel.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by thehef

Count me as one who is hopeful the season can be salvaged, one way or another. If it has to be cancelled, the players should be blamed for not following the rules (absent any contradicting evidence), but Manfred and the MLB should be blamed for a) thinking the players would follow the rules, and b) therefore not going the "bubble" route. (That said, it's too early to say that the NBA's and NHL's bubble plans are a success; one outbreak in a bubble could pretty quickly crash the whole thing.)

At any rate, if the baseball season is cancelled I'm fine with Manfred getting ALL the blame - deserved or not - given the way he completely bungled (and continues to bungle) the Astros scandal.

All are to blame. Rob Numbfred and the league for approaching the situation as laissez-faire as they have; and at least *some* players for going out and having a beer. All of these people should be excised from the league.

I always assumed that the players would be in a bubble - which would work, and it has worked in other situations and for other sports (the odd moron notwithstanding...); this, with family travelling in tow and doing whatever they ****ing please in a situation where the virus is spreading rampantly in the country for REASONS could never have worked.

That was not the protocol I envisioned when I campaigned for a season for months.....

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The players should never been placed into a position to make medical decisions. That was a straight up dumb move by Don Mattingly.

Mattingly ****ed up even before when he failed to instruct his players in not breaking protocol and in sticking to their assigned hotel rooms. Excise that guy, too.

No. Wait. Not having to manage the Marlins anymore sounds like too much of a reward. He must manage the Marlins FOREVER.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

It kind of is, though, for reasons I’ve already stated here. Also, last I checked, players are not medical personnel.

Do only medical personnel know how bad covid-19 is? Players were not just sick, they tested positive before deciding to play the game. The team voted, based on the knowledge of those players being positive, on whether or not to play. Are you saying the players should not be held accountable for that? Are you saying the players, in this day and age when covid has been ravaging the world for months and extensive protocols were put in place and agreed upon by both MLB and MLBPA, that the players, knowing someone on their team had tested positive for covid-19, were too ignorant to understand how bad it really was simply because they're not medical personnel?

[Syd Thrift]

If I ask my butcher if I should go to work with the flu, it's not really my butcher's fault if he says to suck it up and rub some dirt on it and I take that advice.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[cephasjames]

Correct. It's not the butcher's fault, it's your fault because you know you're sick and you go to work anyway. Just like it's the players' fault for going to work when they knew they tested positive. In both your example and with the Marlins, the virus y'all carry is not some unknown thing. There is plenty of information on both of them for the people infected to make informed decisions.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Players were not just sick, they tested positive before deciding to play the game. The team voted, based on the knowledge of those players being positive, on whether or not to play.

This is not true

4 players tested positive. Those players did not play
The players who were still waiting for the results of their tests did play

This is the decision that should not have been left to the team

[Syd Thrift]

Nah, sorry, it's not really the players' fault to act in the role of doctors when they are not doctors. It's ultimately Don Mattingly's fault for assigning that decision to the wrong people, and to whoever allowed Mattingly to make that decision in the first place.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

This is not true

4 players tested positive. Those players did not play
The players who were still waiting for the results of their tests did play

This is the decision that should not have been left to the team

I worded that poorly. I did not intend to say that the players who tested positive played. I was referring to the team of players as a whole.

I agree 100% that it should not have been a decision left up to the players.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Nah, sorry, it's not really the players' fault to act in the role of doctors when they are not doctors. It's ultimately Don Mattingly's fault for assigning that decision to the wrong people, and to whoever allowed Mattingly to make that decision in the first place.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

If you choose to stay inside because of covid or choose to not go somewhere where you know or you think you might be exposed to covid are you playing doctor by choosing not to do those things? Or are you taking readily available information and making a decision on what to do?

There is a difference between "they should not have had to make that decision" and "they are too ignorant to make that decision."

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

If you choose to stay inside because of covid or choose to not go somewhere where you know or you think you might be exposed to covid are you playing doctor by choosing not to do those things? Or are you taking readily available information and making a decision on what to do?

There is a difference between "they should not have had to make that decision" and "they are too ignorant to make that decision."

The second is the reason for the first, and I would not call "being a baseball player and not a doctor" ignorant any more than you are "ignorant" for not being an expert in 11th century European history.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The second is the reason for the first, and I would not call "being a baseball player and not a doctor" ignorant any more than you are "ignorant" for not being an expert in 11th century European history.

You are saying that the players were too ignorant to decide on their own whether it was a good idea to play or not after four players on their team tested positive. You can make a decision for yourself on how you handle interacting with people during covid, but they cannot according to what you're saying, because they are too ignorant (they're not doctors).

I get that you don't think they should have had to make that decision. I'm 100% on board with that. I don't think they are accountable for being forced into that decision. Where I do hold them accountable is that when they were forced to make that decision, despite very accessable science and having lived in a world that screams at everyone what a good choice looks like, they made a bad choice. They cannot be absolved of that choice simply because they shouldn't have been forced to make any choice at all.

Does it suck and is it very wrong that they were made to make that choice? Absolutely! But, despite a mountain of evidence on what a good choice looks like (the same evidence you and I and everyone else bases our decisions at this time), they made a bad choice. People are forced into situations where they shouldn't be and they need to make choices in those situations all the time. They aren't absolved of wrongdoing just because they shouldn't have been in that position to begin with. Yes, we can have compassion on and simpathy for them. But wrongdoing is still wrongdoing.

EDIT: I mean, you're basically saying that anyone who is not a medical professional is too ignorant to make choices about what to do with covid so any decision is okay, because if the choice turns out bad we'll be absolved of that choice no matter what because we have all been unfairly forced into our current situation of living in a global pandemic.

[CBeisbol]

Justin Turner tests positive

Somehow, gets the results during the game

Hopefully, for many reasons, it's a false positive.

If not...
How'd he get it in the bubble?


And even if it's a false positive.
Why did the results come in during the game?
Why was the game allowed to be completed?

Did MLB put all the players in danger (plus their friends, family (Kershaw's baby), umpires, Manfred, etc (and everyone that they might go on to infect)) just to finish the series?

There needs to be some questions.

[CBeisbol]

Wow

Keeps getting worse

Apparently, Turner' s test from yesterday came back positive today in the 2nd inning. Why it took until during the game to get the results, who knows. Then his test from today was expedited, and he tested positive again and was immediately removed. Then the Dodgers won and Turner came back on the field to celebrate
*https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...436008967?s=19

Terrible

[cephasjames]

Justin Turner celebrates Dodgers' World Series-clinching win after positive COVID-19 test; MLB to investigate

Justin Turner celebrates with Dodgers after positive COVID test: Four lingering question as MLB investigates

[Westheim]

You know what? If that's true -

Turner ignored the protocol that calls for COVID-positive players to isolate. He did this with the support of his teammates and the organization. @ESPN

**** the Dodgers.

The team in general, Turner especially, and management three times, because they should know better than letting boys be boys.

**** the Dodgers.