2022-23 NFL Season Discussion Thread

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Here's a good commentary on the events from last night. It outlines why that call is so problematic. Even if you are in the camp that believes there is no fixing or manipulation involved, one has to acknowledge the referees' actions in this does the NFL no good. The only thing more important than not appearing to cheat is not cheating itself. At the very least, it looked like the refs set McLaurin up. And the NFL has to address that. Either allow the ref to help the WR when asked or don't allow it at all.

Yep, I saw & read that a short time before you posted it... Definitely not a good look for the NFL, especially to have only McLaurin's perspective out there, and not the perspective of the ref. I mean, if the ref came out said that he typically doesn't call that penalty unless the WR is way off the LOS, and in his interpretation McL was way off the LOS, and that he clearly told McL that he was not on the LOS & that he doesn't know why McL didn't adjust accordingly, then perhaps it might not look nearly as bad. But to leave it hanging out there, that doesn't look good at all.

[damientheomen3]

One point I haven't seen brought up so far in this case - McLaurin only has to be on the line of scrimmage if there is no receiver between him and the line, and at the time he turned to the ref, a receiver was motioning to that exact position, set, then motioned again for a fake jet sweep prior to the snap. I don't know for sure but by my interpretation of the rule, it seems possible the ref saw the receiver motioning to a spot that made that potential ruling irrelevant at the time he was asked if McLaurin's position was good.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

One point I haven't seen brought up so far in this case - McLaurin only has to be on the line of scrimmage if there is no receiver between him and the line, and at the time he turned to the ref, a receiver was motioning to that exact position, set, then motioned again for a fake jet sweep prior to the snap. I don't know for sure but by my interpretation of the rule, it seems possible the ref saw the receiver motioning to a spot that made that potential ruling irrelevant at the time he was asked if McLaurin's position was good.

The WR was in motion and paused "in between". But he was never on the LOS. He is considered in the "backfield". And once more, the ref went immediately to his flag pocket once McLaurin asked for confirmation. So either he told McLaurin a lie, McLaurin misheard the ref, or McLaurin said "I'm a do me, F your rules".

[Cobra Mgr]

Is it just my imagination, or am I hearing Barry Sanders more over 20+yrs since he retired than at any time during his playing career?

[Ragnar]

Here's a good video on week 15 and 3 games where the refs sucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huLtilONSNI

[monkeyman576]

Youtube has landed NFL Sunday Ticket from DirecTV.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...be-2023-season

[thehef]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

Youtube has landed NFL Sunday Ticket from DirecTV.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...be-2023-season

Although I knew Sunday Ticket was headed to a streaming service, it's still a bit of a bummer because Directv must have me pegged (correctly, in fact) as someone who fits the profile of a potential cord-cutter, because for like 3 or 4 years in a row they have given me Sunday Ticket for free... I'll miss Red Zone, for sure.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Here's a good video on week 15 and 3 games where the refs sucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huLtilONSNI

I don't necessarily agree with some of that guys' conclusions, but he does a really nice job of pointing out just how bad several bad calls/non-calls were this past weekend...

I don't think, though, that the NFL is trying to rig outcomes. If they wanted to, they have enough money and resources to find another, less obvious, way to fix outcomes without simply resorting to really bad calls and really bad replay review interpretations.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by thehef

I don't necessarily agree with some of that guys' conclusions, but he does a really nice job of pointing out just how bad several bad calls/non-calls were this past weekend...

I don't think, though, that the NFL is trying to rig outcomes. If they wanted to, they have enough money and resources to find another, less obvious, way to fix outcomes without simply resorting to really bad calls and really bad replay review interpretations.

I agree. I wasn't trying to suggest anything. I just thought it was a good video on how bad the refs can be.

The Raiders call with his foot out of bounds was the worst.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I agree. I wasn't trying to suggest anything. I just thought it was a good video on how bad the refs can be.

The Raiders call with his foot out of bounds was the worst.

Yep, I hear ya on the former, and totally agree on the latter

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Here's a good video on week 15 and 3 games where the refs sucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huLtilONSNI

He pretty much echoes how I feel.

I don't think the NFL rigs every result like the WWE. But I don't believe they are above manipulating certain games when they feel a "need" arises. Your tolerance of any behavior is measured by your willingness to punish that behavior. We all should expect mistakes. We also should expect consequences for making those mistakes.

That is where the NFL exposes themselves. It's like trying to pretend they are nuns when they are wearing the garb of a stripper. They don't look like what they are trying to make us believe they are. There is no transparency in discipline and no visible actions to tell us they are trying to fix the problem.

Until they reverse that, there will always be fans like me who thinks some games give off the odor of a cow pasture. To this day I believe the tuck rule got called cause Tagliablue didn't want to have Al Davis' smug mug in his face when he gave him the Lombardi Trophy. And it wouldn't surprise me Goodell wants Dan Snyder to go away as quickly as possible & didn't want to risk the Commanders getting hot for a long playoff run.

Even if the NFL front office wasn't behind any of it, the increased attention betting lines have in legalized gambling has the public more aware when a call here or there affects outcomes. And they see all you need is one key person on the gridiron to manipulate things.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

He pretty much echoes how I feel.

I don't think the NFL rigs every result like the WWE. But I don't believe they are above manipulating certain games when they feel a "need" arises. Your tolerance of any behavior is measured by your willingness to punish that behavior. We all should expect mistakes. We also should expect consequences for making those mistakes.

That is where the NFL exposes themselves. It's like trying to pretend they are nuns when they are wearing the garb of a stripper. They don't look like what they are trying to make us believe they are. There is no transparency in discipline and no visible actions to tell us they are trying to fix the problem.

Until they reverse that, there will always be fans like me who thinks some games give off the odor of a cow pasture. To this day I believe the tuck rule got called cause Tagliablue didn't want to have Al Davis' smug mug in his face when he gave him the Lombardi Trophy. And it wouldn't surprise me Goodell wants Dan Snyder to go away as quickly as possible & didn't want to risk the Commanders getting hot for a long playoff run.

Even if the NFL front office wasn't behind any of it, the increased attention betting lines have in legalized gambling has the public more aware when a call here or there affects outcomes. And they see all you need is one key person on the gridiron to manipulate things.

Hey, I agree.

Your tolerance of any behavior is measured by your willingness to punish that behavior.

You could not have said it better than that. But keep in mind that it could just be poor management and a lack of an alternative.

I'm not going to come out and say games are rigged, but they can be if they wanted to. It wouldn't be illegal. Plus the way refs are so inconsistent, you wouldn't be able to tell.

For example, there is no definition for roughing the passer. It can be called on literally anytime someone touches the QB. When you can just pull things out of thin air, you have the ability to fix outcomes.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Hey, I agree.



You could not have said it better than that. But keep in mind that it could just be poor management and a lack of an alternative.

I'm not going to come out and say games are rigged, but they can be if they wanted to. It wouldn't be illegal. Plus the way refs are so inconsistent, you wouldn't be able to tell.

For example, there is no definition for roughing the passer. It can be called on literally anytime someone touches the QB. When you can just pull things out of thin air, you have the ability to fix outcomes.

I don't think poor management or lack of options is an excuse. These are billionaires. Multi-billionaires. I think they have some kind of business acumen. They didn't get those bank accounts while never learning how to address poor work performance. At best, they don't care. At worst, they are afraid to put the 1st crack in the dam that exposes the entire farce.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Your tolerance of any behavior is measured by your willingness to punish that behavior.

While I agree with the above, I think when it comes to the causes of the terrible calls & non-calls, Occam's Razor suggests that it's merely incompetence (which, in support of the Occam's argument, has been rampant in sports - especially the NBA & NFL - for quite some time).

If the NFL really wanted to manipulate outcomes, it could do so in a less obvious manner, rather than, as an example, completely botching the review of the Raider's out-of-bounds TD in front of the entire world.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

While I agree with the above, I think when it comes to the causes of the terrible calls & non-calls, Occam's Razor suggests that it's merely incompetence (which, in support of the Occam's argument, has been rampant in sports - especially the NBA & NFL - for quite some time).

If the NFL really wanted to manipulate outcomes, it could do so in a less obvious manner, rather than, as an example, completely botching the review of the Raider's out-of-bounds TD in front of the entire world.

When video shows flags were thrown before the "offender" made contact with anyone (as in Minnesota), or before the snap (as in Washington), incompetence can't be considered the cause. But even if I was to believe that was the cause, then that incompetence would warrant termination, don't you think? Imperfection is to be expected. But obvious presupposition can't be tolerated. The minimum standard should be seeing violations, not anticipating them. That's the equivalent of police profiling.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

When video shows flags were thrown before the "offender" made contact with anyone (as in Minnesota), or before the snap (as in Washington), incompetence can't be considered the cause.

In the Minnesota example, I think incompetence can be the cause, because it's certainly possible the ref thought he saw something.

In the Washington example, we just don't know because we don't have the referee's side of the story and can only assume that McL's version is the truth.

In both cases, it would be nice for the NFL to be transparent. Not holding my breath... (And in particular, it would be nice to hear the ref and/or replay booth folks' reasoning for allowing the Raiders' TD to stand.) Actually, in this new era where gambling is essentially part of sports establishment, I would think it would behoove the NFL to be as transparent as possible regarding these types of calls... rather than leaving them open to the type of interpretation that calls into question the very integrity of the sport.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

But even if I was to believe that was the cause, then that incompetence would warrant termination, don't you think?

Progressive punishment & other remedies, up to termination for a minimal record of repeated incompetence? Absolutely. It could be that on the Minnesota play the ref just blew it but otherwise has a very good record. I could let that slide...

Again, I don't know what really happened with the McL play, so it's hard to say...

On the subsequent non-call of PI in the end zone, there would have to be some consequences for that unless the NFL is basically telling refs to swallow their whistle at the end of games, ala NBA. In that case, it's not necessarily on the ref... (and what complicates this is that non-call despite obvious PI are frequent in the NFL, so that particular non-call was not out of character for the NFL refs; rather, it was only noteworthy for it's impact on the outcome of a game)...

In the case of the Raiders' non-reversal, whoever made that call (to uphold the call on the field) needs punishment. If it was someone in the replay center, then they need to be fired because that's their only job - to get replay reviews right, and this was an obvious one. If, OTOH, it was ultimately the on-field ref and he has a good overall record, then I would not necessarily fire him... Because, as you say...

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Imperfection is to be expected...

But there is a limit, both in terms of quantity and degree of bad calls.

[Cobra Mgr]

Cowboys know nothing about late game situational football

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

In the Minnesota example, I think incompetence can be the cause, because it's certainly possible the ref thought he saw something.

He "thought" he saw the guy grab a facemask before the guy made contact w/any opposing player? We are going to dismiss that merely as "incompetence"? Let's adjust that a bit: The teacher failed the student's test because he thought he was going to get the question wrong before he even turned in his exam. We would say that teacher is merely "incompetent"?

Not to mention, after having it emphasized to hold back on blowing the whistle too quickly and let replay correct things, after seeing failure to do so cost the Vikes earlier, they make the same exact mistake later in the game. That is only, incompetence?

[Cobra Mgr]

Only 5 teams in the NFC are above .500. Only 4 have a positive pt diff. Minn is 12-3 & only has +5 pt diff (That seems impossible).

A Bucs loss tomorrow & the Panthers could actually clinch the the NFC South next week w/a win & a Saints loss to Philly. After trading their best player & #2 WR, cutting their season opening starter @ QB & firing their HC midseason.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

He "thought" he saw the guy grab a facemask before the guy made contact w/any opposing player?

The Youtube video guy framed it that way but we didn't see video of the player in question prior to the flag being thrown. The video guy just assumed that the flag was thrown in anticipation of a grab that never happened... As I recall watching the vid, I remember thinking "ya, where the narrator is saying the ref "saw" the grab, it clearly didn't happen... but maybe - since the ref threw the flag before the (non) grab, the ref may have seen something prior to that (non) grab."

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

We are going to dismiss that merely as "incompetence"?

If we accept only the conclusion of the Youtube guy, then sure, it's highly questionable that it's simply incompetence.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Not to mention, after having it emphasized to hold back on blowing the whistle too quickly and let replay correct things, after seeing failure to do so cost the Vikes earlier, they make the same exact mistake later in the game. That is only, incompetence?

On this one, probably ya. I mean, we've seen this type of call for decades. Frustrating, yes. But nothing new... Plus, it's a bit of a blink-of-eye-with-the-ball-in-a-scrum kind of thing. And the rules state that if the whistle is blown, the ball is dead... This, too, is frustrating, but it's not as frustrating (and questionable) IMO as the Raider TD, where they had time to review the play and to clearly see that he was OOB; or the non-call on the PI (WFT game) where it was blatantly obvious to where at least one of the refs had to have seen it and made the conscious decision not to call it. (Or if no ref saw it then multiple refs had to be out of position or not observing what they should have been observing.)

I agree with you that these calls are all examples of various degrees of horrid officiating. I just don't think it's at all likely that there's any type of game-rigging going on.