VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1953

[ifspuds]

And if I'm reading the career leader board right, Kinnear was actually 4th in career HRs when he retired, not 6th (as you have him here)... Mickelsen (currently 5th) and Lamberty (currently 3rd) both retired after Kinnear.

[metsgeek]

Originally Posted by ifspuds

I keep wondering why Troy Kinnear isn't getting more votes. er field. Where's the love?

I'll wager it's the .272 batting average

[BPS]

Riley
Ponfick
Paul
Liao
Kinnear
Schwartz
Greisbach
Fargo

[Matt from TN]

Just a bump... With the WS likely being simmed Tues evening, I'd like to end this vote either Tues or Wed.

Get those votes in!

[jdw]

Dave Arkless
Art Booth
Remmy Paul
Luke Riley
Terry Schukraft

Mostly the great pitchers on the ballot.

Luke Riley was 272-138 at the end of 1942. He turned 36 that August. For some bizzare reason, he went off to war. He was a 9/9/8 over 9/9/8 pitcher at the time. He never pitched again, retiring while at war

Mark Ponfick was 264-222 at the end of 1942. He turned 38 in April of that season. He was a 10/9/4 over 10/9/4 at the time. Against the war weak competition, he went 70-30 at the age of 39, 40 and 41.

Heading into 1943, Ponfick had been x-x-9-x-x in the AL in ERA, and 4-6-3-6-10-1 in WHIP from 1937-42. Riley had been 3-2-9-4-6-x in ERA, and 6-5-6-1-4-8 in WHIP.

No one ever thought Ponfick was in the class of Riley. Riley was still a great pitcher when he went to war, at the time in the class of the *ratings* of Dodge Lee, but _younger_. Don't let a flukey 70-30 Ponfick put up while the stars were off at war fool you.

I don't even want to get started on Art Booth. He won his second POY in 1942 at the age of 35. He pitched 1943 before heading off to war.

That Ponfick is #6 on the all-time Wins leaderboard is a fluke, much like Hagan for all those years. He's not as mediocre of a pitcher as Hagan, but over the course of his career other than the War Years, he was far removed from HOF levels.

I would vote for Davie Kendrick before Ponfick, and Kendrick was just a 249-210 pitcher.

Crappy record, right?

But from 1930-36, Kendrick went 152-81 with a 3.26 ERA for a team that won five AL flag in seven years, and were one game back in a sixth of those seasons. They won four World Titles as well. 152-81 doesn't sound impressive? That's an average of 22-12 while eating up 320 IP a year. 3.26 ERA doesn't sound impressive? This was the era of big offense. He was 3-3-3-2-7-9-x in those seven years. Strong WHIPS as well: 3-4-3-2-6-4-9. To go with going 1-7-1-1-8-2-x in Wins.

Kendrick is one of many great stories in TWB history. A high draft pick by the A's in 1920, he cracked into the team's rotation in 1925 as the team won the first of their four AL flags between 1925 and 1932. For whatever reason, Kendrick couldn't pitch in the vast shaddow of Ahrend Nagel. He lost 20 games a year from 1925-27 despute playing for a Great Team. The A's finally gave up on him and traded him in 1928 to the Yankees for.... Mark Ponfick.

Kendrick lost a career high 22 games for the A's in 1929 and it looked like he would be a career wash out. Instead, he went 26-11 in 1930 and won the POY. Against all odds, from 1930-36 he turned into the stead vet the team could lean on while Riley and Booth turned into world beaters.

In the 1934 World Series, forever etched in the minds of TWB fans in the book "Death of a Dynasty", it was Kendrick who took the mound in the critical Game 4 in Philly with the Yankees down two games to one. Scott Fenner, the greatest post season pitcher of all-time, was slated to start Game 5, which meant that a Yankee loss in Game 4 could allow Fenner to close the series out at home the next day. Going head-to-head with another Phab Phour member, Terry Schukraft, Kendrick twirled a five hit shutout and guarantee the series would return to Yankee Stadium. It proved to be a needed win as Fenner shut down the Yankee bats in Game 5 with a three hit, one run gem.

Game Five saw legendary Philly manager Dark Horse make the most criticized pair of decisions of his career. The first was pitching Terry Schukraft on *two days* rest against Freddie Miller rather than in Game Seven against Kendrick. It looked bad decision early, as errors by R.W. Jones (in for injured Hall of Famer Dale Reneau) and Schukraft himself allowed two run in the 3rd. The Phils answered with a solo HR in the top of the 4th, but Miller helped his own cause by singling in Ervin Skjerly in the bottom of the frame. There it stayed until the top of the 7th when the Phils strung together four straight singles, including one by Schukraft, to tie the game. But even then Allen made his second critical decision - not pinch hitting the obviously tiring Schukraft in an attempt to bust the game open. The tide would turn in the bottom of the 8th.

Donovan Argot opened with a single, and the Yankees own legendary manager Ervin Greiner started pushing the buttons with his deep roster. Speedy utility player Murray Hofer ran for Argot, while young Jimmy Ditty pinch hit for first baseman Ralph Tumbridge. Ditty laced a single with Hofer speeding from first to third. Greiner sent another speed utility player, Benny Laubach, in to run for Ditty. After Allen March lined out, Greiner was faced with Miller's spot in the order. Unlike Dark Horse, Greiner didn't think twice and reached again to his deep bench to send up Edward Haddock to pinch hit. Haddock singled in Hofer, while Laubach raced to third. Working on fumes, Schukraft got lucky when a stiff wind kept Harry Finley's fly to short center, keeping Laubach at third. Clarence Bazart followed with a wicked shot to center took all of Ping Hung's blazing speed to run down and keep the game from being busted open.

Greiner brought in 37 year old vet Steve Schaefer to close out the game. The last Philly to make out? Inexplicably with two outs and down by one, Dark Horse Allen sent up Terry Schukraft. For the past twenty years, Philly fans have wonder what Allen was thinking on this day.

Kendrick?

He beat the Phils in Game 7 allowing two runs on five hits in a 6-2 win. The Great Philly Dynasty was dead, and in their place rose the Great Yankee Dynasty winning the first of their record four straight titles.

Sure, Kendrick was "just" 249-210. But in his prime, he was a great pitching anchoring a great rotation of a great team. 152-81 in seven years with a Great Team. John Nolting will be making his HOF case largely on going 115-62 in six years with a Great Team that won four World Titles in those years and were second in the NL the other two seasons.

Am I suggesting him as a Vet Committe candidate? Not really. Just as an example of why I don't vote for Mark Ponfick. Mark won a lot of games. Other than during the War, he wasn't really a great pitcher. Absent of the War when most of the prime talent was gone, we wouldn't even be considering him. He simply wasn't a "great" pitcher for even a period of time that Kendrick was, and had next to no impact that Kendrick had.

Other than the war, of course.

Before someone tosses Remy Paul and "the war" at me, I'd suggest looking at his 1941-42 and 1946-47 seasons when he was the best pitcher in the NL not named Frank Smith... and frankly wasn't taking much of a back seat to Frank in those years either. 1-2-2-3 in ERA in four consecutive non-War years, including a POY and a 41-27 record in the Live Era, is a sign of greatness. And instead of pitching at the age of 39-41 in the War years and eating up medicore talent, Paul walked away at the age of 38 after finishing #3 in the league in ERA against the Real Stars and winning 19 games. Add a free 70-30 onto his career like Ponfick and you have a 363-206 record.

So...

Dave Arkless
Art Booth
Remmy Paul
Luke Riley
Terry Schukraft

Give me greatness any day.


John

[jdw]

For people who want to vote for people who played a long time and had a lot of hits, I think that you be fair you need to vote for Tiny Bowden. He went to war at the age of 32. He had 2510 hits and 657 SB. He never played another game. He could still hit and run when he left - a 7/8/2/5 over 7/8/2/4 with 7/9/9 speed and a decent enough 5 range at SS. You would think he would have gotten some hits in the three years he missed, and quite possibly have found some team (other than the Red Sox who were pushing Morris) to play for after the War when he would have been 36.

No, I won't vote for him.

I don't any of these guys that I'm not voting for are at the level of Dale Lamberty and Dewey Mickelsen. Pee Wee Osbourne was a terrific SS for the Reds, much like Ron Bennarivo was before him. Where does one draw the line?

I did vote for Dave Arkless because I think at his best, he was a great player. Six times in the Top 5 in OPS in ten seasons between 1929-38. He was having another good year in 1939 when a SEI (Ruptured Disc Back) took him out. He was 31 and in his prime. While never quite the same hitter after, he was a good hitter in 1940-42 - his .769 OPS in the deaded ball season of 1942 was just .002 behind the #10 hitter in the league.

Then Arkless went off to War. He would have been 35 the following season. He was two years older than Dewey Mickelsen and one year older than Dale Lamberty, and three years _younger_ than Oscar Vancini. He was a 7/6/8/10 over 7/6/8/10 hitter, and still had his 10 range that won him seven Gold Gloves in CF, including the two before heading off to war.

His bottom line numbers don't look to impressive?

Well, there's the rub. The Red Fox wasn't one of those guys who got to come up young and then play forever like so many of our HOFers and HOF Candidates. He did come up young at 18, and was a great player by the age of 21. He was still one of the best players in the league at the age of 34 when he went off to war, though it was hidden below a low BA. How many good to decent years did he miss by going to war? Who knows. As many as Dewy and Lamberty?

Like Jimmy Ditty, I'm giving him some credit for heading off to war, and unlike Jimmy, I'm giving him some credit for getting that early retirement. He's missing 75-100 HR, 250-300+ RBI, and a similar amount of BB. And another 3 GG.


John

[bigjas]

3B Alan Liao
SS Adolf "The Human Torch" Greisbach
2B Bobby Martin
CF Jon Minzey
3B Troy Kinnear
SS Ricardo "Tiny" Bowden
CF Dave "Red Fox" Arkless
3B David "Pops" McAuliffe
P Mark Ponfick
P Remmy Paul

[jdw]

And since I seem to be in a ranting, rambling mood today...

1B Quenton Misisca (1925-1941)
2B Kid Fite (1923-1933*)
2B Ray Dimeo (1935-1946)
SS Adolf Greisbach (1928-1942)
3B Troy Kinnear (1924-1937*)
RF Nick Graves (1921-1937*)
LF Lawrence Barry (1924-1931)
SP Floyd Bettles (1923-1934)

That's barely scratching the surface of the talent the Tigers had in that period. This is a team that would come up with guys like John Storback who won both the BOY and ROY in 1932, four Gold Gloves in LF, and while inconsistent would make leaderboard appearances all the way through 1941. Stroback is the reason the team traded Barry, much like Dimeo would eventually take Fite's spot. Or picked up Bob Guilderson to win a ROY in 1935 and a POY in 1940.

No doubt this team had bad pitching. But after Graves game up in 1921 and until Greisbach left for the war in 1942, this team finished 7-8-2-2-4-4-7-1-3-4-3-8-6-8-5-7-6-8-6-8-8-8. That doesn't even do justice to the mediocrity of the team. They were only within *10* games of first place these seasons:

* In 1924 they finished tied for first with the Senators. The Senators beat them 7-6 in the playoff to finish "one game ahead".

* In 1928 they finished four games ahead of the A's.

That's it. They were within 15 games just two other times - 1925 and 1927 when they were 12 games back each time. More typical of them were things like 1923 when they finished in 2nd and were 19 games back. In 1929 and 1931, they were 3rd finishing 19 and 21 games back. This team won 80+ games just three times - 1923-24 and 1928. Mind numbing.

If these guys were Oscar and Frank Smith and Remy and the White Rhino finishing out of contention year after year after year, then they'd still be worthy of going in because they were Great Players.

Instead, they were a bunch of Jeff Bundy and Jon Minzey and Speedy Perly and Brad Coffenberger and Edwin Impens and Max Baxter types. Okay, they were better than most of those guys. But look some of them up. Minzey is on the ballot. Bundy was a very good player for close to a decade. Speedy is a boardline HOF, the great base stealer in history and has put a lot of runs on the board over his career. Coffenberger, Impens and Baxter were all lesser players, but each brought positives to the table. Coff was one of the best fielding 2B of his generation before having his career cut off by the war, and had some decent years with the bat before the ball deaded out. Baxter and Impens combined to win 401 games in support of Smith and Paul.

The Tigers... I just don't know. Kid Fite clearly was a great player. The rest are really a mixed bag. You'd think that a team that had four alleged HOFers (Kid, Misisca, Greisbach and Kinnear) along with another player who at his best was a better hitter than any of them except for Kid (Nick Graves), and other strong supporting players would finish within 10 games of 1st a few more times than twice, and win 80+ games more than three times in two decades.

I rooted against the Yankees in that era like the rest of you. But lordy... we've put in just one member of The Greatest Team Of All-Time - Fat Gus Kahle... who peaked *before* the Dynasty and was more part of that Amazing Depth that Ervin "Gaffer" Greiner put together for that run. I hated those Yanks, but I did admire them at the time, and am in awe of them looking back. We might want to get a few more of them in before we start packing the Hall with a bunch of guys who couldn't win.


John

[pat]

Minzey
Kinnear
Arkless
Bowden
Greisbach
Liao
Martin
Fargo
Riley
Ponfick

[Matt from TN]

Great reads as always John. I'll probably post my picks tomorrow.

What's odd about WWII is that I knews some great players would struggle to be inducted because their career stats would be lacking & people would have to look deeper, but I didn't even think at the time about Ponfick being helped because of the war. Jessie Holt even makes a decent case for the Hall (tho I won't vote for him). But he proved after the war was over that it wasn't really a fluke.

And I like your point about how the Yanks can't get anyone elected while the underachieving Tigers are pimped regularly. BUT, Ditty and maybe Hung may help New York be represented better. Plus Booth and Riley should both be in.

[jdw]

> What's odd about WWII is that I knews some
> great players would struggle to be inducted
> because their career stats would be lacking &
> people would have to look deeper, but I didn't
> even think at the time about Ponfick being
> helped because of the war.

Something just fired me up about Ponfick.


> Jessie Holt even makes a decent case for the
> Hall (tho I won't vote for him). But he proved
> after the war was over that it wasn't really a
> fluke.

Jessie also won a BOY in 1940 and had a good year in 1942 while most everyone (other than Ditty and one or two others) was still around. He had a nice BA in 1938-39, and while not a excellent player, was good.

To me those help him more than 1946 and 1947. He really wasn't that strong those years:

1946 OPS
.797 - Holt
.707 - League Average
.869 - #10 OPS in AL (Bowers)

1947 OPS
.788 - Holt
.699 - League Average
.890 - #10 OPS in AL (Monachino)

He did drive in a lot of runs in 1946, but it game from hitting in the middle of a strong line-up. Sort of like the last couple years Tino Martinez was with the Yankees.

When I think of guys who proved their greatness during the war wasn't a fluke, I think of:

* Remmy Paul: In 1941-42 and 1946-47, he *averaged* a 20-13 record with a 2.76 ERA while tossing 321 IP. 1-2-2-3 in ERA, 8-4-2-3 in WHIP and a POY in 1946. In those four years combined, he was the best pitcher in the NL not names Frank Smith. I don't think one actually needs to be *better* than Frank to make the HOF. That's not even touching on the fact he won 21, 23 and 22 games from 1937-39.

* Bob Bussman: "Found" himself again in 1943-45 going 58-35 with 7-1-4 finishes in ERA and 4-5-6 in WHIP. From 1946-50, he proved that was no fluke. Averaged a 20-10 record with a 3.08 ERA, including a POY in 1949 and an ERA title in 1947 along with being the ace of what might be "The Greatest Single Season Team of All-Time".

* Cotton Simson: A very good to excellent pitcher in 1941-42 before the war. Dominant during the War... and dominant ever since.

* Harry Badeau: An excellent player in 1941 before he joined Mo Lutske in the Coast Guard. An exceptional player in 1944-45 after he got out, and after a bit of a tough year in 1946, he was the best OF in the AL (and probably the game) from 1947-50 who wasn't named Kress. Pretty much just bad luck that he hasn't won a BOY. He probably is the Edgar Martinez of TWB, except (i) he probably won't age as well as Edgar, and (ii) he's a Gold Glove level fielder in the OF (including CF) while no one ever accused Edgar of being a strong fielder. He's more than proved that 1944-45 weren't flukes.

* Bill Finley: Pretty much farted away his entire career prior to the War, despite playing for the strong Senators and being a #1-7 pick all the way back in 1930. Flipped the switch in 1943 with the stars away - 20-13, 23-11 and 24-14 going 9-4-5 in ERA and 7-3-3 in WHIP. Proved it wasn't a fluke as he went 1-4-2-7 in ERA, 2-2-2-4 in WHIP and a 78-41 record from 1946-49. Currently has a 262-202 record. 143-80 (a 20-11 average) in the 7 seasons from 1943-49, and 119-122 (a 7-8 average) in the other 16 seasons. Once of the aces on two AL champions. He sort of is our Hal Newhouser, though Hal was far younger, just happened to be hitting his stride at 23 in 1944 during the War, and then had his arm blown up young. I think Bussman was the better pitcher than Finley, but Finley got those 16 years of farting around while Bussman's career was more screwed up by the White Sox and a certain manager. Then again, Newhouser's 207-150 is closer to Bussman's 193-102, at least in wins.

* Schoolboy Emberling: Not a HOF candidate. But he went 62-43 during the War winning 21, 23 and 18 for an above average-to-good team. Post war, he was 7th in ERA in 1947, won the ERA title in 1948, and won 18 games twice. He also won 41 in 1941-42 before going to the war. Clearly a very good pitcher who just hit his peak in the war, but was able to "bookened" it with quality play.

* Ace Shipley: Didn't break into the Reds rotation until 1942, and wasn't very sharp. Spent 1943 in the Coast Guard, then went 37-27 in 1944-45 after returning. Spent 1946 finding his legs against the returning stars, and was slowed by a arm injury. From 1947 on up through this season he's consistently been one of the best pitchers in the NL. 1-2-5-3-4 in ERA coming into this season, and just off the top 10 this year. The 1st was with a World Champion, the third was with another, and in the *other* three years he went 61-29. I think the developmental gods are going to be a little tough on him, so it's iffy if he's going to match Bussman's 193 wins. He's young enough to do it (35 early in 1953), and he plays for a very strong team. His talent has taken a little bit of a hit, but when you consider he was 6/6/8 over 7/6/8 when the Cards got him, and is 5/6/7 over 6/6/8 now, it's not a drastic drop. The tricky part with him is that (i) he doesn't have a lot of talent margin to work with, and (ii) his 5 Endurance means one can't use the Cubs Developmental Method to try to push him towards his max. Still, he has a nasty WHIP and the ERA remains very good. I'm rooting for him - he's one of my favorites of the post war.

* Em Pelto: Got the starting job in Philly during the War. Actually hit his prime in 1948-50. He's declining badly right now, though his Contact remains high, so it's odd. The decline plus the strong post War play of Rauch, Dunkel and Lee are cutting into Pelto's HOF chances. Even Bowers from 1946-51 matches up with better offense. Pelto seems to be in the upper range of the Bowers, Pelto, Moore and Betters group rather than the lower end of the Rauch, Dunkel and Lee group.

* Chuck Rauch: Got good in 1944-45, but took his game to an entirely different level with the 1948-49 World Champion Phillies. Added in personal highs in HR, RBI and SLG in 1950 along with the HR record for catchers (38 HR as a catcher, 1 as a PH). Continued to be strong in 1951-52, and amazingly just increased his power at the age of 37. The question is how much time he has left as he turns 38 in the off season. He has a chance at 300 HR if he doesn't bleed talent in the roll over and can hold it during the year (especially with offense going up next year).

* Kress: Well, of course.

* Mo Lutske: First strong year was 1945. He's been at that level pretty much ever since against the stronger competition, with his career year (so far) in 1950 shortened by a nasty arm injury.

Most of these guys either aren't HOF material or like Kress and Mo have made the majority of their bones after the war.


> And I like your point about how the Yanks can't
> get anyone elected while the underachieving
> Tigers are pimped regularly. BUT, Ditty and
> maybe Hung may help New York be
> represented better. Plus Booth and Riley
> should both be in.

I think Ping comes across looking well in the Catobase stuff *so far*. 1-1-4 in XR from 1934-36 before getting sent to the bench due to the deep Yankees OF, then #1 again when finally getting a starting job again in 1942. He's 1931 which isn't in Cato looks like another top 10 XR. I think as a very strong OF, he probably would pick up a good number of defensive WS. His SB and SB% really do a number on upping his XR, so we may find his WS in his full seasons to be very good. Then it depends on how voters want to weigh his (i) two years missing to the War, and (ii) five years spent as a great bench player while Moonlight, Schnozz and March got the lions share of the playing time.

Then again, those Yanks were so strong and so deep that one wonders how those WS will get spread around the team.


John

[Matt from TN]

I'll get my votes in tomorrow afternoon & the vote will end at that time.

[LivnLegend]

Schwartz
Misisca
Riley
Kinnear
Schukraft
Fargo

[Operation Shutdown]

Seems like a lot less voters this year.

CF Dave "Red Fox" Arkless
SS Adolf "The Human Torch" Greisbach
CF John Minzey
3B Troy Kinnear
3B David "Pops" McAuliffe
SP Mark Ponfick
3B Alan Liao
SS Ricardo "Tiny" Bowden
SP Remmy Paul

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by Operation Shutdown

Seems like a lot less voters this year.

I thought so too, but it looks like your about #16, which is a few more than we had in our first few years. The last 2 votes were our highest at 20-22 or so. So, this year isn't that far off really. I'll be voting later this afternoon & close the vote then.

So voting's still open til you see me post the results.

[THE GUT]

I almost missed this one...

Minzey
Misisca
Holt
Mcauliffe
Martin
Greisbach
Liao
Riley
Booth
Paul

[Matt from TN]

Kinnear
Misisca
Greisbach
McAuliffe
Riley
Schukraft
Booth
Paul
Arkless
Minzey

[Matt from TN]

For just the 2nd time in HOF history, no one was elected. That was particularly surprising since the new class of eligible players was weak compared to recent classes. And because of that, several players were believed to have a shot at getting in. Some players were just short.

Adolf Greisbach	73.68%
Luke Riley	73.68%
Remmy Paul	73.68%
Mark Ponfick	68.42%
Alan Liao	63.16%
Terry Schukraft	57.89%
David McAuliffe	57.89%
Jon Minzey	47.37%
Troy Kinnear	47.37%
Quenton Misisca	42.11%
Ned Fargo	36.84%
Dave Arkless	36.84%
Ricardo Bowden	31.58%
Bobby Martin	31.58%
Willard Schwarz	26.32%
Art Booth	26.32%
Jessie Holt	15.79%
Harry Finley	5.26%

The following players will be dropped from the ballot with less than 5%. The year they are eligible for VC voting is listed in parenthesis:

John Shears (1969)
Pee Wee Osborne (1969)
Joe Campbell (1969)
Benny Eremitani (1969)
Foster Hempkins (1969)
Keith Laverick (1969)

[canadiancreed]

wow i'm defiantely surprised there. figured we'd have a lot of 90's

Pee Wee Osborne (1969)
Benny Eremitani (1969)
Foster Hempkins (1969)

crap looks like i'll be joining the VC come 1969

[jdw]

Next year gets tougher:

Saturday 3/2/1949 :
CHA: Leonard Davie retires ...
NYA: Ervin Skjerly retires ...
WSH: Carl Kahle retires ...
PHI: Ted Stuart retires ...

Dutch Kahle was actually the *better* third baseman among the Kahle's. Fat Gus is already in. He was one of the two or three greatest 3B in the history of the game when he retired.

Sunny Davie is the best catcher of his generation, and the best between the Whiskey/Cohan era and the current trio of Lee, Rauch and Dunkel.

Ted Stuart is the greatest fielding SS of all-time, and not a black hole with the bat. Among the greatest fielders in the games history, the line starts with Woody Woodson (who also happens to be the best hitter), Ray Brown, Kevin Stines and Stuart. I hope DY can run some Catobase on the years Stuart played so we can see just how good he was.

Ervin Skjerly won more championships than any other player. Ervin Greiner's decision to move him into the stating line-up late in 1927 to spark the run to the pennant is often cited as the "birth" of the Yankees team that would win 8 pennants and five world title between 1927-1940. In 1943 Bop Vacha wanted some vet leadership to help team develop. Ervin was the Phils CF as they took three pennants and two world titles from 1944-46. 11 penants, 7 world titles. Oh, and he could hit a bit. A BOY.

All four deserve serious consideration.


John