VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1948 - Page 2

Matt from TN · 10-19-2004, 12:57 PM

Hertzog
Schwarz
Zegri
Misisca
Schmeider
Reneau
Kinnear
Finley - 10 GG's, 7 pennants and 5 WS wins. Plus a .288 AVG, 1139 R and a whopping 632 SB for a catcher! Defense and offense. Was a Yankees sparkplug atop their order thru most of their 2nd dynasty. I loved this player & will continue to vote for him. Incredibly gifted defensively, led an awesome pitching staff, was a solid hitter & great baserunner to boot.
Smith
O'Neill

Smith & O'Neill may never get enough support to be HOF's, but they were excellent pitchers & I support them. Depending on who makes the ballot next year, they will be the 1st two I'll drop to keep my ballot down to 10.

Vris · 10-19-2004, 03:55 PM

My apologies. By the looks of things, I thought we had been getting less and less voters. That's good news. I take it all back.

jdw · 10-19-2004, 04:42 PM

Vris wrote:

> Well look at the Hall of Fame, jdw. Does it have
> all "great"s?

I think if we set aside the "mistakes" that the RL HOF has made, we'll find that most everyone deserving of being in had at least some streatch of being "great".

What we have on the ballot at the moment are a dozen Tony Perez types. Except in TWB and with the OOTP engine, they got to the bigs earlier, kept full time jobs longer, and end up with 3000 hits.

I never was terribly enthused with Tony as a HOF candidate. It's hard for me to get enthused with a dozen Tonys.

> What do you want, just a Hall of Fame with 10
> people in it that no one can match.

I think if you go back through the HOF threads, you will find that I have voted for *more* than 10 players. I just don't feel the need to vote for ten *every year*.

> There are "greats" that no one can match,
> but there aren't enough of them to make
> it very interesting.

I don't expect people to match Woody and Oscar, or match Murph and Frank Smith. I've advocated a lot of guys like Jed Burke, Raymond Gindler, Whitey Kohse, Allen Albertini, Flaky Arsenault and Bowie Castellon who *weren't* as great as those four, but were great none the less. I advocated Dark Horse Allen who quote possible was at the level of greatness of those four, but the electorate missed the boat on him. I'm still advocating Patrick Seifried. That's not even counting the various non-brainers I've voted for like Bourbon last year.

If the TWB had a "Roll Of Honor", a lower level award that was given in addition to going in the HOF, you'd see me voting for someone like Roy Hobbs the first time out. But for the HOF... you've read my posts - I tend to prefer to error on the side of caution rather than toss everyone in.

Example?

Sunny Davie is probably the best catcher of his generation. If you ask me if he's a HOFer, I really don't know. Maybe... but I'd have to look at him closer, the other catchers of the era closer, and give it a good deal of thought.

Matt (and this is NOT to knock Matt) voted for Harry Finley this year. I like Harry's defense, and actually was the one on the thread to note his setting the all-time record for Gold Gloves by a catcher. I'm fond of most of those players on those Yankees teams. But he really was a very marginal hitter, especially during the 1933-40 Dynasty Years where he was largely a mediocre hitter.

Sunny and Harry's careers very nearly overlap. Harry came up in 1923 and got the fulltime job in 1927 as the Yanks won the first of their AL flags in his career. Sunny came up in 1927, was forcing his way more into the line-up in 1928, and had the White Sox job in 1929 before injuries ended his season and then trashed nearly all of his 1930 season (missing out on the Sox miracle run into the post season. From 1931 on he's been a fixture in the line-up.

I'd love a Roll Of Honor for Harry since (i) all those Gold Gloves and (ii) all those championship teams is worthy of a mention. But if I'm scratching my head over a much better player like Sunny, it give you an idea of how high a standard I'm holding candidates to.

Too high?

Perhaps.

John

Matt from TN · 10-19-2004, 05:17 PM

Personally I appreciate your position John. You're the balancing force in the HOF voting. Much like comparing your list of ancestor's to mets'

Occasionally I vote for players who may never get in as recognition for a great career, like Finley & Brett Smith. After a year or 2 of voting for them, I will probably stop. It usually doesn't affect whether or not they're inducted since they get so few votes.

I know the crop is a bit thin this year & those of you who've been over to the TWB boards know how huge next year's crop is (probably the biggest ever). But, this is one of those years where guys like Zegri can finally get full support after missing by a hair on more than one occaision. I'm excited to see who gets in this year. As always, there are several players on the bubble.

Matt from TN · 10-19-2004, 05:20 PM

Also, I'm strict on votes when the players actually have a real shot at induction. I purposely pass on guys like Bourbon Allen. If he hadn't made it, I likely would've voted the 2nd year. I never voted for Will Haggan or Ned Fargo despite their heavy support on early ballots.

And it's interesting to note that Hertzog & Reneau may both get in this year and they are almost carbon copies of each other. Both played for fantastic teams in Philadelphia too.

fhomess · 10-19-2004, 06:25 PM

I still don't understand why Reneau is getting so much more support this year than last. Reneau never got more than 45% of the vote previously. I'm curious why people are voting for him this year in such large quantities, when previously that wasn't their opinion. Do people simply feel obliged to vote for a minimum number, or have you folks really changed your mind? If so, what's changed it?

I'll single out John for comment, if he's willing, since he usually gives the most thorough answers, but anyone else can comment too.

canadiancreed · 10-19-2004, 06:43 PM

myself i figured that for batters if they had decent average(+.300), power(300+) or hits(3000+), they'd be worth it, although it's hard to get an average carrer wise for this league not being here as long

Vris · 10-19-2004, 07:40 PM

John,

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way and going over my comments, I feel like I singled you out in a bad way. That wasn't my intention.

It does seem like you have a higher standard then everyone else. That's definitely not a bad thing at all. Don't get me wrong. I vote for the players that I thought had fantastic careers, and so the first thing that usually catches my eye is the World Series rings, such why I voted for so many Yankees/Phillies. Those were outstanding teams and deserve a lot of recognition in the Hall.

I totally understand your position and I know why you vote the way you do. I absolutely love reading your positions because you go more in depth than I ever could find the time to do. I didn't mean to knock, just curious. Thanks for the explanation.

And Matt, if you expect me to know as much about TWB that John knows, I resign right now.

cknox0723 · 10-19-2004, 08:05 PM

Willard Schwarz
Dale Reneau
Troy Kinnear
Quenton Misisca
Harry Finley
Ned Fargo

jdw · 10-19-2004, 08:53 PM

fhomess wrote:

> I'll single out John for comment, if
> he's willing, since he usually gives
> the most thorough answers, but
> anyone else can comment too.

I wrote this back when he hit the ballot, which wasn't too many years ago:

"On Wizard Reneau vs. Schwarz, people probably should vote for Wiz ahead of Schwarz. Wiz's R+RBI is actually 19 higher. His OPS is _much_ higher -.829 vs. .760. Heck, .317/.382/.447 smokes .260/.312/.448 despite the HR advantage Schwarz has. Wiz's leaderboard appearances BA (2-2-7), OBP (2-2-8-9), SLG (5-8-10) and OPS (2-6-10) swamp Schwarz's SLG (1-2-2-5-6) and OPS (3-8-10). Schwarz was an "RBI Man" (1-3-6-9-9-9-9) while Wiz was a Run Man (1-3-4-7-7-10) that pretty much wash out. Gold Glove catcher (one of the best ever with 8) vs. Gold Glove SS ("just" three). I know Schwarz held the all-time HR record. He's not exactly Dave Kingman, but he's not Mike Schmidt either.

As you can see, I didn't vote for Wiz. He's close. An .829 OPS from a Gold Glove middle IF is very impressive. Flaky was a .838. Of course he played a large chunk of his career in the dead ball era, while Wiz got the lively ball. You can look at Flaky in the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS leaderboards and see that in the context of his time he was consistently a better hitter than Wiz. So I'm being cautious with Wiz until we look a bit more into him. Then again, one can take a look at Schwarz and compare him with the Great Catchers who came before him and see he comes up very short."

It mostly was an indictment of Schwarz, who really isn't worthy of being in the HOF.

I'll post more later.

John

bigjas · 10-20-2004, 02:13 PM

Jerry "Slap" Hertzog
Glendon "Bull" Zegri
Nick Graves
Dale "The Wizard" Reneau
Jon Minzey
Troy Kinnear
John Schmeider
"Fat Gus" Kahle

Matt from TN · 10-25-2004, 04:54 PM

"The Wizard" gets a ton of support in what many considered an "off" year in terms of new players added to the ballot. A very similar player, Slap Hertzog, was also inducted.

Bull Zegri missed by a hair yet again. He is a hard luck guy who receives a lot of support every year but just can't seem to get in the doors of Cooperstown. This is not the first time he has gotten over 70%.

Code:

Dale Reneau		93.33%
Slap Hertzog		86.67%
Bull Zegri		73.33%
John Schmeider		66.67%
Fat Gus Kahle		66.67%
Quenton Misisca		60.00%
Troy Kinnear		53.33%
Willard Schwarz		33.33%
Harry Finley		26.67%
Howard Parrish		20.00%
Moonlight Graham	20.00%
Nick Graves		20.00%
Jon Minzey		20.00%
Ned Fargo		20.00%
Brett Smith		6.67%
William O'Neill		6.67%

The following players will be dropped from the ballot and the year they become eligible for the VC is in parenthesis:

Bill "The Imp" Sheeder (1963)

metsgeek · 10-25-2004, 05:44 PM

Fat Gus got gypped

10-19-2004, 12:57 PM	#21
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Hertzog Schwarz Zegri Misisca Schmeider Reneau Kinnear Finley - 10 GG's, 7 pennants and 5 WS wins. Plus a .288 AVG, 1139 R and a whopping 632 SB for a catcher! Defense and offense. Was a Yankees sparkplug atop their order thru most of their 2nd dynasty. I loved this player & will continue to vote for him. Incredibly gifted defensively, led an awesome pitching staff, was a solid hitter & great baserunner to boot. Smith O'Neill Smith & O'Neill may never get enough support to be HOF's, but they were excellent pitchers & I support them. Depending on who makes the ballot next year, they will be the 1st two I'll drop to keep my ballot down to 10. __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

10-19-2004, 03:55 PM	#22
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	My apologies. By the looks of things, I thought we had been getting less and less voters. That's good news. I take it all back. __________________ None Blog it.

10-19-2004, 05:17 PM	#24
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Personally I appreciate your position John. You're the balancing force in the HOF voting. Much like comparing your list of ancestor's to mets' Occasionally I vote for players who may never get in as recognition for a great career, like Finley & Brett Smith. After a year or 2 of voting for them, I will probably stop. It usually doesn't affect whether or not they're inducted since they get so few votes. I know the crop is a bit thin this year & those of you who've been over to the TWB boards know how huge next year's crop is (probably the biggest ever). But, this is one of those years where guys like Zegri can finally get full support after missing by a hair on more than one occaision. I'm excited to see who gets in this year. As always, there are several players on the bubble. __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

10-19-2004, 05:20 PM	#25
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Also, I'm strict on votes when the players actually have a real shot at induction. I purposely pass on guys like Bourbon Allen. If he hadn't made it, I likely would've voted the 2nd year. I never voted for Will Haggan or Ned Fargo despite their heavy support on early ballots. And it's interesting to note that Hertzog & Reneau may both get in this year and they are almost carbon copies of each other. Both played for fantastic teams in Philadelphia too. __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

10-19-2004, 06:25 PM	#26
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,653	I still don't understand why Reneau is getting so much more support this year than last. Reneau never got more than 45% of the vote previously. I'm curious why people are voting for him this year in such large quantities, when previously that wasn't their opinion. Do people simply feel obliged to vote for a minimum number, or have you folks really changed your mind? If so, what's changed it? I'll single out John for comment, if he's willing, since he usually gives the most thorough answers, but anyone else can comment too. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

10-19-2004, 04:42 PM	#23
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	Vris wrote: > Well look at the Hall of Fame, jdw. Does it have > all "great"s? I think if we set aside the "mistakes" that the RL HOF has made, we'll find that most everyone deserving of being in had at least some streatch of being "great". What we have on the ballot at the moment are a dozen Tony Perez types. Except in TWB and with the OOTP engine, they got to the bigs earlier, kept full time jobs longer, and end up with 3000 hits. I never was terribly enthused with Tony as a HOF candidate. It's hard for me to get enthused with a dozen Tonys. > What do you want, just a Hall of Fame with 10 > people in it that no one can match. I think if you go back through the HOF threads, you will find that I have voted for more than 10 players. I just don't feel the need to vote for ten every year. > There are "greats" that no one can match, > but there aren't enough of them to make > it very interesting. I don't expect people to match Woody and Oscar, or match Murph and Frank Smith. I've advocated a lot of guys like Jed Burke, Raymond Gindler, Whitey Kohse, Allen Albertini, Flaky Arsenault and Bowie Castellon who weren't as great as those four, but were great none the less. I advocated Dark Horse Allen who quote possible was at the level of greatness of those four, but the electorate missed the boat on him. I'm still advocating Patrick Seifried. That's not even counting the various non-brainers I've voted for like Bourbon last year. If the TWB had a "Roll Of Honor", a lower level award that was given in addition to going in the HOF, you'd see me voting for someone like Roy Hobbs the first time out. But for the HOF... you've read my posts - I tend to prefer to error on the side of caution rather than toss everyone in. Example? Sunny Davie is probably the best catcher of his generation. If you ask me if he's a HOFer, I really don't know. Maybe... but I'd have to look at him closer, the other catchers of the era closer, and give it a good deal of thought. Matt (and this is NOT to knock Matt) voted for Harry Finley this year. I like Harry's defense, and actually was the one on the thread to note his setting the all-time record for Gold Gloves by a catcher. I'm fond of most of those players on those Yankees teams. But he really was a very marginal hitter, especially during the 1933-40 Dynasty Years where he was largely a mediocre hitter. Sunny and Harry's careers very nearly overlap. Harry came up in 1923 and got the fulltime job in 1927 as the Yanks won the first of their AL flags in his career. Sunny came up in 1927, was forcing his way more into the line-up in 1928, and had the White Sox job in 1929 before injuries ended his season and then trashed nearly all of his 1930 season (missing out on the Sox miracle run into the post season. From 1931 on he's been a fixture in the line-up. I'd love a Roll Of Honor for Harry since (i) all those Gold Gloves and (ii) all those championship teams is worthy of a mention. But if I'm scratching my head over a much better player like Sunny, it give you an idea of how high a standard I'm holding candidates to. Too high? Perhaps. John

10-19-2004, 06:43 PM	#27
canadiancreed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 11,660	myself i figured that for batters if they had decent average(+.300), power(300+) or hits(3000+), they'd be worth it, although it's hard to get an average carrer wise for this league not being here as long __________________ PT21 PT22

10-19-2004, 07:40 PM	#28
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	John, I'm sorry if I offended you in any way and going over my comments, I feel like I singled you out in a bad way. That wasn't my intention. It does seem like you have a higher standard then everyone else. That's definitely not a bad thing at all. Don't get me wrong. I vote for the players that I thought had fantastic careers, and so the first thing that usually catches my eye is the World Series rings, such why I voted for so many Yankees/Phillies. Those were outstanding teams and deserve a lot of recognition in the Hall. I totally understand your position and I know why you vote the way you do. I absolutely love reading your positions because you go more in depth than I ever could find the time to do. I didn't mean to knock, just curious. Thanks for the explanation. And Matt, if you expect me to know as much about TWB that John knows, I resign right now. __________________ None Blog it.

10-19-2004, 08:53 PM	#30
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	fhomess wrote: > I'll single out John for comment, if > he's willing, since he usually gives > the most thorough answers, but > anyone else can comment too. I wrote this back when he hit the ballot, which wasn't too many years ago: "On Wizard Reneau vs. Schwarz, people probably should vote for Wiz ahead of Schwarz. Wiz's R+RBI is actually 19 higher. His OPS is _much_ higher -.829 vs. .760. Heck, .317/.382/.447 smokes .260/.312/.448 despite the HR advantage Schwarz has. Wiz's leaderboard appearances BA (2-2-7), OBP (2-2-8-9), SLG (5-8-10) and OPS (2-6-10) swamp Schwarz's SLG (1-2-2-5-6) and OPS (3-8-10). Schwarz was an "RBI Man" (1-3-6-9-9-9-9) while Wiz was a Run Man (1-3-4-7-7-10) that pretty much wash out. Gold Glove catcher (one of the best ever with 8) vs. Gold Glove SS ("just" three). I know Schwarz held the all-time HR record. He's not exactly Dave Kingman, but he's not Mike Schmidt either. As you can see, I didn't vote for Wiz. He's close. An .829 OPS from a Gold Glove middle IF is very impressive. Flaky was a .838. Of course he played a large chunk of his career in the dead ball era, while Wiz got the lively ball. You can look at Flaky in the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS leaderboards and see that in the context of his time he was consistently a better hitter than Wiz. So I'm being cautious with Wiz until we look a bit more into him. Then again, one can take a look at Schwarz and compare him with the Great Catchers who came before him and see he comes up very short." It mostly was an indictment of Schwarz, who really isn't worthy of being in the HOF. I'll post more later. John

10-20-2004, 02:13 PM	#31
bigjas Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olive Hill, KY Posts: 279	Jerry "Slap" Hertzog Glendon "Bull" Zegri Nick Graves Dale "The Wizard" Reneau Jon Minzey Troy Kinnear John Schmeider "Fat Gus" Kahle

10-25-2004, 04:54 PM	#32
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Final Results! "The Wizard" gets a ton of support in what many considered an "off" year in terms of new players added to the ballot. A very similar player, Slap Hertzog, was also inducted. Bull Zegri missed by a hair yet again. He is a hard luck guy who receives a lot of support every year but just can't seem to get in the doors of Cooperstown. This is not the first time he has gotten over 70%. Code: Dale Reneau 93.33% Slap Hertzog 86.67% Bull Zegri 73.33% John Schmeider 66.67% Fat Gus Kahle 66.67% Quenton Misisca 60.00% Troy Kinnear 53.33% Willard Schwarz 33.33% Harry Finley 26.67% Howard Parrish 20.00% Moonlight Graham 20.00% Nick Graves 20.00% Jon Minzey 20.00% Ned Fargo 20.00% Brett Smith 6.67% William O'Neill 6.67% The following players will be dropped from the ballot and the year they become eligible for the VC is in parenthesis: Bill "The Imp" Sheeder (1963) __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

10-25-2004, 05:44 PM	#33
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,450	Fat Gus got gypped __________________ Commissioner - PBRL - Just finished 2009 109 seasons and still running strong!!!