Barry Bonds and special career algorithms.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Stephen19

I wouldn't even mind having a chance to have a player have Bonds like abilities come up once every 20 years. It is something to look forward to.

Once every is WAY too often. Bonds and Babe Ruth are the only players I can think of that are utterly OUTSIDE the development curve. Cobb, Mays and Williams seem to be pretty much at the top of what OOTP will generate. Possibly guys with the longevity of Cap Anson, Henry Aaron or Pete Rose would need to be added, although I think the engine is getting better at this all the time.

As I see it, if the game allowed for an occasional "super player," it would need to occur about once every 60 years at most.

[Stephen19]

I could live with once every 60 years.
I'm doing a replay from 1901 to the present at the moment, and it would just be kind of fun to have some player come along that just stood out from the crowd in a big way, not just a little.
I do think if it's rare enough it could be added to the engine.
I don't want those types of players flooding the game, but the occasional anomaly is not out of the question.

[Crapshoot]

Fundementally, OOTP needs to generate a pyramid like talent structure- unlike the trapezoidal one it has now- and it needs greater deviation.This problem is beyond our control- its for Markus to deal with. this is symtematic of the same problem...

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by Stephen19

As for his monster year in 2001, it came after he hit 49 in 143 games the year before.

To be fair, that is quite an increase. going from 49 to 73 is an additional 24 homers, which is a reasonably good homer season in itself.

Of course, Brady Anderson managed to go from 16 to 50 to 18 (never having even half of 50 homers in any other season in his career), so weird things do happen.

[akw4572]

I ban use of steroids in my league. Hence, no Bonds-like players.

[cgh3rd]

Originally Posted by ctorg

Of course, Brady Anderson managed to go from 16 to 50 to 18 (never having even half of 50 homers in any other season in his career), so weird things do happen.

Anderson has his career year the same year admitted user Caminiti had his best year. Personally, I don't think there is much strange about it. The guy had career year while he was juiced.


Here is my general contention. These guys are the best players at hitting a round ball with a round bat. How much enhancement to do they need? They can get a lot out a little boost. Look how much further the balls fly out of Coors with a smaller amount of wind resistance. If a good juiced player gets 10% more distance out of the flight of the ball that comes out to around 30-40 feet per longer hit ball. How many flyballs a season do you see caught at the warning track? Now what happens if a great player decides to roid it up? The skies the limit and suddenly discussions about outrageous OBPs/OPS are taking place. Everyone says Mac hit 65 without the pill in 1999. Well, he had already used it to give himself that little extra to get over the top. Then his body broke down and he was out of the game a year later. Now he is slim and trim. You make the call.

The shame of it all isn't the destruction of the single season HR record it is the ruination of the career records. Plus the glorification of Bonds makes me even sicker because there is 99% chance the guy cheated to finish off what was already a great career. Don't even get me started on the media (ESPN especially) for being complict in a defacto cover-up of the whole scandal.
Oh well, I stopped watching the game for a couple of years and got drawn back because of the pennant races and playoffs last year. I think the game is cleaning up its act slowly but it is cleaning up its act. There's a couple of players I'll always root against because they have cheated to get their names stated in the same sentence with Ruth, Mays, and Aaron. Other than that I love the game as much as I did when I was a kid.

As for the algorithim to replicate Bonds in some fashion I think it is a bad idea.

[Stephen19]

Show me facts on anyone that's taking steroids. Aside from a few that have admitted it, the rest is specluation. Pure and utter speculation and nothing more. He's big, he hit HR's, he had to have done something. Okay. Convict.
As for career records, I've heard people say that everything that happens in Coors field is the equivalent of cheating and while it might be an exaggeration, it's also close to the truth.
Some parks are small, some are big, so if a guy hits 50 in coors and some other poor sap hits 30 in the Astrodome, should we just give them both 40 and call it even?
Now while the ball park dimensions is not the same as possible supplements, it still gives one teams players an edge in power, while other teams get an edge in say triples or extra hits with a bigger outfield.
The contention that Bonds, McGwire or whoever else had to take steroids to hit so many homers has yet to be proven.
It seems if you have a good year you must be on drugs. Lucky Ruth wasn't around now. He'd be accused of it to.
Cause that's just how we are today. If you're at the top, people want to knock you down.
It's not just Bonds, it's anyone who has a good year with HR's.
It can't possibly be the fact that players are bigger and stronger now. It can't be the fact the the pitching is thinner. It can't be the fact that many teams are shrinking their ball park to increase the HR production.
Whatever it is, to say steroids or some other form of drug is why players hit more HR's is simply crap.
Give steroids to Furcal and will he hit 73? No.
Would Randy Johson hit 73 with some vitamin supplements? He's 6' 10. Maybe he could.
No, in fact neither would anyone else on the Giants or in baseball in general.
Because if you believe some of the numbers Canseco or Camminitti mentioned, it was anywhere up to or even more than half the players have taken some form of supplement. Some are borderline legal and others are full on steroids, but the point of it all is, drugs don't make people hit HR's. Never have and never will.
If so, then perhaps even those guys hitting 20 a year are taking them, but they just don't have the talent to hit 50. I'd bet quite a bit that the smaller guys take them as much as the bigger guys, just to try and compete.
Maybe even people's favorite players who aren't hitting 50 HR's a year are taking them to. That would be something. Then what would the world do.
Not to mention there is no proof that these specific players have used steroids specifically. There are many legal supplements that people can use.
And believe it or not, if you work out for a year, you can increase your muscle mass almost 100%, so if you do it for 15 years, perhaps you can get even bigger if you wish.
For every baseless accusation people have for those who succeed in sports, there's also logical explanations for things.
To stay on topic, I think it would be good for the game to add the season or career anomalies of some of the best players of all time. Having a player increase his ratings at 37 or so would be a nice surprise.

[cgh3rd]

You need to go back and re-read my post. Your reponse makes assumptions that I did not make. My point is very specific and I don't think you are getting it. They were very good at what they do and by enhancing it even slightly they are better than anyone has ever been before...all of a sudden. Its the whole game of inches thing they get every inch they can by cheating. Look at how the bodies have changed on these players...not filling out but out of proportion. Look how round Bonds' face is. Go back and look at old tapes of Bonds. He was a leadoff hitter at the beginning of his career! LOL Griffey has filled out, Bonds is blown up. There is no proof because no one wants to know the truth or even acknowlege it.

Want some more unsubstantiated fodder? The dirtiest little secret in baseball is the incredible increase in DL time over the past few years is directly related to steriod use. (ESPN The Mag, one of the June Issues I believe) In any other sport a significant increase in injuries would bring about some sort of investigation. Baseball shrugs its shoulders just like it did when the steroid supplements were "legal". Like I said I love the game I just don't drink its kool-aid anymore.

[Stephen19]

I understand your point is drugs enhance players. Okay, but what you don't seem to also realize is that it's widely rumored that half the league was or is still using some type of supplement.
So to single out Bonds or McGwire, Sosa or like I said, whoever else you wish to convict because they had great years seems a bit unfair.
Why aren't others hitting 70 HR's then? Unless you believe Bonds is the only one who ever took drugs, you have to assume others have as well, so if they have, why aren't there 50 players with 70 HR's? Why aren't there at least 20? 10? 5?
The answer is simple, if you gave every major league player steroids, you still wouldn't see someone get 70 HR right off the bat. Probably wouldn't get 60 or 50. Which is my point, drugs do not =HR's.
I do have baseball cards of Bonds and I have seen tapes of him from his early days in Pittsburgh. Obviously people change over the years.
If he is one day proven to have used steroids as opposed some over the counter supplement as he has been claiming, then I to will be disappointed in him.
Until that day comes, I think singling him out is more like a witch hunt cause he's had the most success.
DOes anyone care if some .220 hitter hits 20 HR after hitting 4, you know much like Knoblauch did. Not as much. It's not a big deal. It's minor compared to going from 49 to 73. But, what if he used drugs to get it? Does it matter if you use drugs and don't hit 70 HR's? I wonder.
To me unless they find a way to test everyone and soon and thoroughly, I don't think we'll ever know who used what and when.
Which will lead to this type of discussion of did he or didn't he. With no real proof of a thing.
I'm not here to defend drug use. I think it's wrong and in the end the players that take them will pay with mega health problems down the road if nothing else.
I'm also not going to act like some god and decide who has and hasn't taken them. Because I don't know. I don't believe anyone else does for certain, besides the individual players themselves.
Obviously everyone can believe what they wish. I just want proof first.

[FamundaCheese]

For the love of christ man, you MUST be Bonds' agent or PR rep or something.

[cgh3rd]

The 50% number is not legit so it makes the rest of your contentions leaving a lot to be desired. I believe less than 6% of over 1400 players tested positive for steriods last season. Of course the players knew it was coming but still had enough positive tests to force the continuation of testing.

[Stephen19]

I've heard numerous numbers being speculated about. It's impossible to prove either way, which is kind of the point of this whole thing.
When there are no official facts, there are no official answers.
Doesn't change the fact that if even as low as 6% used some form of enhancement, legal or otherwise, which I think is incredibly low, why don't those 6% all hit 73 HR?
We could go back and forth on this forever, but I think it's highly off topic and purely subjective so let's just agree to disagree until we find something out for real.

FamundaCheese For the love of christ man, you MUST be Bonds' agent or PR rep or something.

Nope, if I were I'd be a very rich man.

[HolyCow98]

The only time I've heard the 50 % figure spoken was by Ken Caminit...

[UngratefulDead]

Ummm.. so why are we taking the statements of admitted steroid users over those of suspected one?

I personally consider things Jose Canseco or Ken Camminiti said to be somewhere below circumstantial.]


EDIT: Post 300. Wheeee.

[Crapshoot]

Dont you know Ungrateful Dead - Chuck said that roids make you a better player with onlu minimal improvement, and he thinks they did it- so they must have. Jeeze louise, isnt it obvious ?

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by akw4572

I ban use of steroids in my league. Hence, no Bonds-like players.

Are you using the Malleus Dei name file as well? Don't be half-steppin'.