Manual?

[dougaiton]

Originally posted by Henry
I guess what this comes down to is this.... to accomplish the request to provide the manual at game's release, two items would have to be implemented.

1. Hire more employees to work on the manual simulataneously with the game's development, and

2. Extend beta testing to try and include the first couple patches BEFORE release, so the manual would be correct.

I would suspect these changes would bring about a higher price and later release date.

Henry,

We don't want a manual to tell us the algorithm the game runs by. We just want a 6 page PDF file that covers the basics such as 'Why do league totals work counter-intuitively?', 'Do I turn aging up or down to get older players?', 'What does Stuff etc. mean?', and 'How do waivers work?', even 'what is Pyt Rec?'. These are questions that are not answered by FAQs, but need answered if you want to use the features you have paid for. I don't know how much John C charges by the word, but I'm pretty sure it isn't enough to drive the price of OOTP up (not when MLB licensing will have a 'neglible effect').

Shaun Sullivan seems to be able to ship each version of Puresim with a fully working manual. Is his dev. team of 1 that much bigger than OOTPs? Would SI Games would sanction a release without a manual?

No-one wants to know the algorithms. People do want to know what general effect changing x will have, which was information that even Steve and yourself didn't have their hands on when the game was released.

I understand that OOTPD puts a lot of effort into creating the best baseball game on the market. However, certain vital elements are jettisoned after release. There is still no ITP manual, for example.

NB: My frustration is with the process, not the people.

[mking55]

Originally posted by dougaiton
Shaun Sullivan seems to be able to ship each version of Puresim with a fully working manual. Is his dev. team of 1 that much bigger than OOTPs?

Are you talking about the Shaun Sullivan who produces a fine game in his spare time? The same one who has a full-time job? The Shaun Sullivan with 4 kids? That Shaun Sullivan?

No, you couldn't be. Then his game would cost thousands of dollars and take years to do a release. And he would need hundreds of employees hiding in his basement doing the work. (Does the IRS know about this?) And then he is lying about everything because he claims to be a 1-man show.

Please, what Shaun Sullivan do you refer to?

[kq76]

Originally posted by mking55
Henry,

For someone who claims to be experienced in these matters, I am shocked and appalled by your post.

You are wrong and being foolish. You are also misleading the ignorant masses who congregate here and have some respect for you.

Unfortunately, many people (and there are much more than you think) are not impressed by your lame excuses for things. Your responses have become a joke with regards to development and business issues.

If I want someone to sim for hours and post results, you are the man to go to.

If I have a concern or complaint about the game, I am 99% sure that you will be among the excuse makers of why something that shouldn't be bad, is bad. Shame on you!

Add me to the list of those tired of the excuses. Preferrably they would just work on the problems, but I also understand people wanting their questions answered and their comments acknowledged. Just saying, "we're working on it" and then doing just that would be much more productive and appreciated than the constant barrage of excuses I'm sure.

EDIT: This is not constant from everyone at OOTP and to them I say thanks.

[BPS]

FYI, the lack of a manual does NOT lower the cost of the game. Rather it INCREASES the cost of the game to users.

Logic: say that a manual does raise the price of the game by $5. How long would it take most people to earn $5: certainly far less than an hour.

But with no manual new users might spend, say, 2+ hours looking up stuff in the forums to see how the game works (beyond what they might have spent if they had a manual).

So, if "time is money" then the lack of a manual actually raises the cost to new users. They would have "spend" an hour to buy a manual but they now have to "spend" many hours tracking down information on line.

In short, by not providing a manual the developers have reduced their costs (by delaying the production of the manual) but have done so in a way that shifts a much larger cost to the collective of users.

This isn't really nice, is it.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by mking55
I'll make this simple so that you (and those similar to you) can perhaps understand it.

Well, up yours, you gaping abyss of ignorance.

You know absolutely nothing about development and either the proper way to do it, or the best way to do it.

LOL, what a pathetically wrong assumption. I have been programming since 1971. The list of PC computer baseball games I have beta tested and/or contributed to is essentially the Hall of Fame list, and it includes OOTP.

Documentation and programming go hand in hand, even in a 1-man show.

Bullcrap. A well-designed application doesn't need a manual, and that's an aphorism in the programming community. You need references on that?

The lame reasoning suggested by you (and others) does a disservice to the whole community and says, "Be second rate because we worship whatever you do".

No, it says "The manual is a low priority item." Learn to read.

I don't understand you people who have 'excuses' for everything that is wrong.

1. It's not "wrong." It's a wise choice.

2. That was an explanation, not an excuse. Did you flunk reading comprehension?

I wonder if it is the same way you conduct yourselves in life. I guess we will never know.

Son, I'll tell you right now: yes, I also routinely assign low priority items a low priority. This is how intelligent adults manage things.

That is part one of the manual discussion.

That was not a "discussion." This was just you spouting pure ignorance.

Part 2 which obviously went over your head is the sarcastic comment I made in reply to a post by the person who said he was writing the manual. He said it should be available by the end of the weekend and that was 2 weekends ago.

You couldn't go over my head if you had a plane, son. They just released the patch yesterday. If you had been paying attention then you would have seen that the 6.02 patch took longer than anticipated. That rolled the whole OOTP schedule back. Pay attention if you are going to whine about things.

Did he come back on and say, "Oops, I was wrong. It is taken me much longer than I hoped for". No, of course not.

There were plenty of comments about how the patch was taking longer than expected. You appear to have missed all of them. Shame on you

The S.O.P. (Standard Operating Procedure), around here (and I am not just talking manual) seems to make a claim, perhaps put a promise time period on it, and maybe it will appear and maybe it won't.

Now that's just a damned flat lie. A time estimate is made, and the product is released as soon as it's been tested and is ready. As an old-time OOTP (and Earl Weaver, and Tony LaRussa, and so on) beta tester, let me tell you that sometimes testing takes less time than you think it will but sometimes unexpected things crop up and it takes a lot longer than anyone anticipated or wanted. The OOTP priority has always been to get things done RIGHT, and not just shovel something out the damned door, and that's the right philosophy.

We have our army of fanboys to make our excuses for us, and just be grateful for what you have.

I'm not anybody's damned fanboy. Whenever Markus has screwed up - which is a damned rare event - I've been all over his case. Overall, Markus' record is nothing less than outstanding.

This operation gets shoddier by the day (OOTP Baseball, not to be confused with their excellent boxing product).

No, it's you who get shoddier by the minute. OOTP has improved steadily since Version 1 (yes, I was here in those days). Things keep getting BETTER.

And it is people like you who encourage this to happen by not having any standards or expectations.

My standards and expectations are for a consistently better OOTP. Markus consistently meets or exceeds them, and his priorities (patches and updates before manuals) are the correct ones.

It is people like me (and there are many more like me who just can't be bothered banging their heads against the wall by posting), who are annoyed by it

Frankly, I don't give a damn. Markus has his priorities straight: the game first, and all trivialities second. If you don't understand why he does it that way, then there's no help for you.

Before you do this again, try real hard to get your facts straight. So far your whines have been not only pathetic but just flat ignorant.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by mking55
For someone who claims to be experienced in these matters, I am shocked and appalled by your post.

Henry IS experienced in these matters. You aren't.

You are wrong and being foolish. You are also misleading the ignorant masses who congregate here and have some respect for you.

That would be YOU doing that. Henry, on the other hand, is correct.

Unfortunately, many people (and there are much more than you think) are not impressed by your lame excuses for things.

You have a gerbil in your pocket? Or you are possesed by a demon, perhaps? Speak for your damn self, junior.

Your responses have become a joke with regards to development and business issues.

No, your comments are a joke. Henry is rock solid, as he has always been.

Shame on you!

No, shame on you for attacking Henry, who is a good a guy as you will find anywhere. The only shame here is YOURS.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by dougaiton
Shaun Sullivan seems to be able to ship each version of Puresim with a fully working manual.

You mean Shaun "Slower-than-molasses" Sullivan? ROFL. Given the time he took between some updates, he could have written entire books.

(By the way, I like Shaun and admire some of his work. He's just never been very speedy about it.)

[BPS]

RE

Markus has his priorities straight: the game first, and all trivialities second. If you don't understand why he does it that way, then there's no help for you.

The problem is, I think, that people have different priorities. For instance, new users of the game have different priorities than those with long experience with the game.

To new users a manual is not a trivial item.

Whose priorities are the "right" ones? Well, some might say the production priorities of the developer are the correct ones. Others might say, if you are selling the product on a market then the buyers' priorities should come first.

Indeed, buyers of the game had a very good reason to believe that a manual would be provided at the time of purchase. Or, at the very least, in-game on-line help should be part of the game.

This, however, did not happen.

Selling a program without some sort of documentation would be similar to me buying software by sending in, say, a $30 check but when the developer cashed the check my bank (at my behest) only sent them $25. The developer would likely say, "Hey, I thought you gave me $30; I want that extra $5 now!"

New users of the product might also say, "Hey, where's the manual! I want it now!" when they thought the game had a manual at the time of purchase.

[Malleus Dei]

Here it is in simple format for the reading-impaired:

THE MANUAL IS A LOWER PRIORITY THAN A FUNCTIONAL V6 IS. THEY'LL GET TO IT. DEAL WITH IT.

Write that on your hand so you can remember it the next time you feel the urge to whine or belittle Henry.

By the way, if you clueless morons want to insult me, go ahead. But DON'T YOU DAMNED EVER DARE INSULT HENRY, who has done nothing but love this game and contribute to it and be nice to people he should have bitch-slapped and banned from the board, and who happens to be one of the best and most decent people in computer baseball.

And no, I don't work for OOTP in any way.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by BPS
New users of the product might also say, "Hey, where's the manual! I want it now!" when they thought the game had a manual at the time of purchase.

Yawn. New users can read the FAQ's and ask questions about the 1% of items that aren't covered in the FAQ's.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Henry
I guess what this comes down to is this.... to accomplish the request to provide the manual at game's release, two items would have to be implemented.

1. Hire more employees to work on the manual simulataneously with the game's development, and

2. Extend beta testing to try and include the first couple patches BEFORE release, so the manual would be correct.

I would suspect these changes would bring about a higher price and later release date.

Henry is correct with this. Try reading and understanding this before you whine any more.

[mking55]

Malleus Dei,

You are an idiot and/or a moron. I'm sorry, I don't know which is the more correct term to use with the likes of you. Thank you for once again proving it with your ignorant comments that we have grown to expect from a person such as yourself.

If you have been programming since 1971, then you have obviously fooled a lot of people since then and for that I congratulate you. You also have learned nothing over the years, but from reading some of your posts, I am not surprised by that.

As for taking pride in your beta-testing and including OOTP among your sucesses, then I promise not to tell anyone. If I were you, which I am glad I am not, then I would keep it a secret.

Anyhow, I have nothing more to say to imbeciles such as you. Your comments are worthless to all who are unfortunate enough to read them.

I will give you a place of honor on my ignore list.

Martin

[adventureran]

THE MANUAL IS A LOWER PRIORITY THAN A FUNCTIONAL V6 IS. THEY'LL GET TO IT. DEAL WITH IT.

But I thought you didn't work for OOTP. So why should this have any meaning at all?

[TheRugman]

Malleus Dei...What's the matter with you? People are raising legitimate questions by asking for a manual that should come with a game when it is released. From my standpoint, it is not a low priority.

I don't think the name calling is very professional ( on both sides)either. This is a reasonable discussion and there is nothing wrong with having it. Deal with it.

[Aordolin]

I think Mallleus sumed it up pretty well kinda hard to top that. Everyone knows that a manual is highly desired by a large number of people. We know it, you know it, and the developers know it. They said its being worked on, there is a sticky on this forum that said its being worked on. And now your getting on someones case because he didnt meet the release date he set? Why do you think developers never want to give a straight answer about a release date? Because if you had ever written anything beyond these cry baby whine posts you would know that programming or writing any kind of documentation doesnt always follow timetables. What do you want a webcam on Henry's desk showing the real time progress of the manual?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by mking55
You are an idiot and/or a moron.

LOL. I am tied for the GRE record.

If you have been programming since 1971, then you have obviously fooled a lot of people since then and for that I congratulate you.

You can't fool people writing code, son. If you knew anything about programming then you would know that.

You also have learned nothing over the years.

I learn something new every day. Today I learned that you are totally ignorant and clueless. Who knows what knowledge tomorrow may bring?

As for taking pride in your beta-testing and including OOTP among your sucesses, then I promise not to tell anyone.

I don't care what you do. Earl Weaver was the best PC baseball game of its time, and I am proud to have helped Eddie Dombrower with it. OOTP is the best PC baseball game of its time, and I am gald to have contributed to it as well.

If I were you, which I am glad I am not, then I would keep it a secret.

If you were me? You WISH you were me.

I will give you a place of honor on my ignore list.

Ooh, I feel so bad now. Not.

Shut up and go back to your Playstation, kiddie.

[Henry]

Closed.