Mechanics of Stealing During One-Pitch Mode

[StratMan]

2. You can take a pitch to combat a pitchout. If the count goes 1-0 another pitchout attempt is less likely, but could occur.

4. A "forced steal" will result in less success as you are telling the runner to go "no matter what".

=======================

Are these two items true in version 25? I am still playing version 22 and can definitively say that there are zero pitch outs on counts 1-0, 2-1, 3-1, 2-2 and 3-2.

I am also certain that forced steal (run and hit) has zero impact on stolen base percentage in version 22.

It is very easy for anyone with a 65 steal rating (even with 20 run rating) to steal 150+ bases every year at 80-85% success rate.

This is one of my biggest gripes about the game. It is impossible to manage stolen bases without a huge advantage in this game.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by StratMan

It is very easy for anyone with a 65 steal rating (even with 20 run rating) to steal 150+ bases every year at 80-85% success rate.

I feel like this is a very exaggerated statement. It's not even a guarantee that a player has 150+ situations which would dictate running in a 162 game season, let alone to "easily" steal over 150 bases.

Not saying that it can't happen, but saying "anyone" with a 65 steal rating can "easily" do it -- I would disagree with that.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by md40022

Not saying that it can't happen, but saying "anyone" with a 65 steal rating can "easily" do it -- I would disagree with that.

Yeah, if that were true someone forgot to tell my 8 aggressive/ 8 steal players (2-8 scale).

[Syd Thrift]

I guess if you just try to steal on every single pitch until a batter has 2 strikes on them? One downside to the game in this respect is that the pitch count doesn't really matter unless strategies turn the count to 4 balls or 3 strikes (the latter, for instance, if you try to bunt with 2 strikes, which the game will do with pitchers, but also, say, if you're taking on 3-2 or sending a runner to steal on 1-2). A big, big part of this is that while we do have data on out chances by count, we do not at all have data on, say, 1-2 counts where the 2 strikes came when the hitter was instructed to take for the runner at first to steal if he got a jump. Certainly, having to protect the plate with 2 strikes should hurt your average to some degree, but how much?

I think if you're going to personally choose to handle baserunning strategies like steals, you really should implement house rules like "only on a favorable count" coupled with something like "only give the green light once per PA and if you really want to steal after the runner doesn't get a jump you have to force-steal". I mean, or don't: you can play the game you want. I feel like hitting the green light on every single pitch is cheesing the game AI, however, and I have limited sympathy for people who complain that it allows them to steal too often.

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by md40022

I feel like this is a very exaggerated statement. It's not even a guarantee that a player has 150+ situations which would dictate running in a 162 game season, let alone to "easily" steal over 150 bases.

Not saying that it can't happen, but saying "anyone" with a 65 steal rating can "easily" do it -- I would disagree with that.

Not exaggerated. Screenshot is in current season. Widdows stole 200+ last year. I don't pad stats by stealing 3rd with 2 outs, never steal home, etc.

Since there is no penalty for run & hit (other than on a pitch out), you run & hit on every count that has 0 pitch outs with 65+ steal rating because strategically it is the "right" thing to do. Stealing 3rd is even easier since there are no pitch outs at all. Double steal is the best since guaranteed no swing and no pitch out. Even with these gaudy numbers, I still don't steal 65s all the time with good catcher arms, etc. depending on the situation.

You can argue "don't do that then" but there is no way to simply not steal at all and if you only do it in crucial times you'll still win way more games than you should. My teams always steal 600-800 bases a year easily.

This really needs to be fixed. Strat-o-matic had a better system with tabletop and dice.

[md40022]

Well..... you definitely weren't making it up.

Still, something seems off there. Just looking at your overall numbers, your team is striking out 5 times per game on average, which is like reallllllyyyyyyy low. Also, averaging over 7 runs per game, which is really high (obv. running like crazy helps that)... Even your big power hitter, Aguilar is only striking out 1x per every 7.9 at-bats.....

Something seems off with the modifiers or with what auto-calc might or might not be doing from season to season (can someone smarter than me on that topic maybe confirm what I'm saying?)..... your offensive numbers just look ridiculous to me lol

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by md40022

Well..... you definitely weren't making it up.

Still, something seems off there. Just looking at your overall numbers, your team is striking out 5 times per game on average, which is like reallllllyyyyyyy low. Also, averaging over 7 runs per game, which is really high (obv. running like crazy helps that)... Even your big power hitter, Aguilar is only striking out 1x per every 7.9 at-bats.....

Something seems off with the modifiers or with what auto-calc might or might not be doing from season to season (can someone smarter than me on that topic maybe confirm what I'm saying?)..... your offensive numbers just look ridiculous to me lol

My team is really really good from trading over the last six years. League totals have been steady - I think matched to 2014 season so a lot less strike outs than you are probably used to seeing. Since I play out every game, I am deciding the SB attempt frequency not the game engine.

League totals will have nothing to do with stealing problem. The crux of the issue is there is no penalty for run & hit vs steal attempt, so you get the jump every single time with your 80+% success rate (90% in my case)

There needs be a system where the manager can green light (player steals on his discretion), encourage steal (player actively tries to get a jump each pitch and goes if he gets it), and a true run and hit (players goes 100% of the time regardless of jump), and red light (player is not to steal) all with different success rates.

Without a change, you really need to jump back to one pitch mode and surrender running decisions to the AI for realism.

[tonnage]

Something does seem strange here. I have two really good base stealers on my fictional team, a 75 and a 80. I play a 130 game schedule and aggressively steal, unless of course, a game is out of hand, etc. The best I've managed in a single season is 63 stolen bases by my 80 guy, he was picked off 11 times, so 63/74. My league record is 82 stolen bases by an AI controlled team/player. I believe the modern day MLB record is 130 by Ricky?

[md40022]

2014 or not, those totals are still off.

in 2014 the very best team in the league when it came to avoiding strikeouts was at 6.1 strikeouts per game and league average was about 7.7 per game.

Your league (AL) average is 6.1 which is equal to the very best team at that in 2014. The worst team at striking out in your league (7.06 per game) would have been in the top 6 in real world 2014. The worst team at this in real world 2014 was at 9.12 per game, which is more than 2 strikeouts higher than your worst team..... Even if you are an excellent GM that found a way to beat the game, the rest of the teams in your league seem out of whack on this stat as well though.

Your point about steals is clearly, clearly valid given that you have 318 steals thru 44 games . Doing the math on this, that would be 1170 steals over a full season. If you're carrying 13 position players that means each position player is averaging 90 steals. Given that a few of those guys are bench players and dont get the ABs, that means your full time guys are all swiping 100 bags a year . I'm surprised that with all the testing that some people have done that I've never heard this before. Just get 9 fast guys and run & hit every single time on base and this is the result? If so, yeah something under the hood needs to be looked at.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Something does seem strange here. I have two really good base stealers on my fictional team, a 75 and a 80. I play a 130 game schedule and aggressively steal, unless of course, a game is out of hand, etc. The best I've managed in a single season is 63 stolen bases by my 80 guy, he was picked off 11 times, so 63/74. My league record is 82 stolen bases by an AI controlled team/player. I believe the modern day MLB record is 130 by Ricky?

I would consider myself aggressive in the running game, within reason. I don't just run automatically anytime anyone ever gets on base, which is what it looks like Stratman might be doing, but I would consider myself aggressive by normal managerial standards. And anytime that I do run it is ALWAYS via run & hit.

That being said, I've never had a guy swipe even 100 bags in a season let alone put up the totals that Strat is talking about. Granted, I've never specifically constructed a roster on that attribute.... but still. I can't argue his results, the numbers don't lie.... but my god something seems off there lol

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by md40022

I would consider myself aggressive in the running game, within reason. I don't just run automatically anytime anyone ever gets on base, which is what it looks like Stratman might be doing, but I would consider myself aggressive by normal managerial standards. And anytime that I do run it is ALWAYS via run & hit.

That being said, I've never had a guy swipe even 100 bags in a season let alone put up the totals that Strat is talking about. Granted, I've never specifically constructed a roster on that attribute.... but still. I can't argue his results, the numbers don't lie.... but my god something seems off there lol

This is, as I said, caused by jamming that button until you hit 2 strikes. The game is one pitch per at bat with a little gloss to allow single pitch strategies. You’re going to be able to cheese it, the same way you can cheese the game by taking until you have 3 strikes and wind up with 1500 walks a season.

Should the devs spend time on this? To be honest the vaaaaast majority of people don’t play their games out like this.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

This is, as I said, caused by jamming that button until you hit 2 strikes. The game is one pitch per at bat with a little gloss to allow single pitch strategies. You’re going to be able to cheese it, the same way you can cheese the game by taking until you have 3 strikes and wind up with 1500 walks a season.

Should the devs spend time on this? To be honest the vaaaaast majority of people don’t play their games out like this.

And I'm in agreement with that.

If you practice enough with the button masher games you can put up some obnoxious offensive numbers..... and I guess in a way OOTP is sort of being treated like a button masher game when played in this style.

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

This is, as I said, caused by jamming that button until you hit 2 strikes. The game is one pitch per at bat with a little gloss to allow single pitch strategies. YouÂ’re going to be able to cheese it, the same way you can cheese the game by taking until you have 3 strikes and wind up with 1500 walks a season.

Should the devs spend time on this? To be honest the vaaaaast majority of people donÂ’t play their games out like this.

And this is why game issues like this persist season after season. This one goes back to at least version 19 and most likely a lot longer than that.

This isn't just about gawdy SB numbers. It is about the entire strategic aspect of playing out a game rather than simming it.

I agree with you on Take Pitch. I don't use it because there is no real game strategic reason to use it. Even taking 3-0 doesn't change the AB, so why bother with it? As far as I'm concerned, the button should be removed.

As I've already demonstrated, Run & Hit is entirely a cheat code. You should never be able to Run & Hit with the same percentage as Steal Base and always get the jump. Double steal is entirely a cheat code. You should never be able to double steal with a guaranteed attempt on one pitch with same percentage as Steal Base. Should no one use them ever? And if you do use them rarely (but in a critical situation), isn't that still a cheat code?

I can create house rules to only attempt to steal once or twice per plate appearance, but is that too much or too little? If I only attempt on pitch out counts, will that yield too many CS? If I don't use run & hit because it is a cheat, will I get too many DPs where strategically it can and should be used on 2-2 or 3-2 counts with 0 or 1 out?

House rules help limit game systems that don't reflect reality, but there should be no reason why the game system can't be updated to more accurately reflect the tradeoffs of real strategic in game moves. Like I said, StratOMatic had a better system in the 1970s with the clumsiness of a tabletop game. There is no reason a computer sim can't reflect this properly.

[Syd Thrift]

Again, I’m not a dev but I know the thought process: that’s a lot of extra work for some extra utility that’s going to be felt by very few players. Most people don’t play out games or when they do they let the computer manager handle these strategies. I know the way I’d handle this would be to add some kind of malus when a batter takes a strike but then you’re going to have people complaining that their team isn’t hitting worth a damn (and of course if it messes up the sim engine, which is just the game engine running very quickly, everyone will dislike it). In fact, if the devs take time on this an awful lot of people will complain that this is spending time on “new features” (which I mean it’s not at all) instead of, like, improving the roster and trade AI.

I’m not saying that this means this will never be updated or that it shouldn’t be, but that’s the reality, and that’s why I’m advocating workarounds for now.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by StratMan

And this is why game issues like this persist season after season. This one goes back to at least version 19 and most likely a lot longer than that.

This isn't just about gawdy SB numbers. It is about the entire strategic aspect of playing out a game rather than simming it.

I agree with you on Take Pitch. I don't use it because there is no real game strategic reason to use it. Even taking 3-0 doesn't change the AB, so why bother with it? As far as I'm concerned, the button should be removed.

As I've already demonstrated, Run & Hit is entirely a cheat code. You should never be able to Run & Hit with the same percentage as Steal Base and always get the jump. Double steal is entirely a cheat code. You should never be able to double steal with a guaranteed attempt on one pitch with same percentage as Steal Base. Should no one use them ever? And if you do use them rarely (but in a critical situation), isn't that still a cheat code?

I can create house rules to only attempt to steal once or twice per plate appearance, but is that too much or too little? If I only attempt on pitch out counts, will that yield too many CS? If I don't use run & hit because it is a cheat, will I get too many DPs where strategically it can and should be used on 2-2 or 3-2 counts with 0 or 1 out?

House rules help limit game systems that don't reflect reality, but there should be no reason why the game system can't be updated to more accurately reflect the tradeoffs of real strategic in game moves. Like I said, StratOMatic had a better system in the 1970s with the clumsiness of a tabletop game. There is no reason a computer sim can't reflect this properly.

If this is in-fact the cheat code that you say it is, where you can just R&H all day long and steal 1000000 bases a season and average 7+ runs per game but yet you continue to use the cheat code with the frequency that you do ----- it kind of waters down any issue that you claim to have with the problem though. No?


If this is legitimately as broken as you say it is, wouldn't you implement some limitations on it. Maybe limit how many times a game you use it. Or limit it to practical situations where it would be used in real life, or something.


Saying that it's broken and that it is a way to beat the game, yet willingly entering said cheat code every time it is remotely possible to do so is kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth. I guess I'm a little confused with how you say that it's a bad thing, but then you also have 300+ steals 40 games into the season. It's like saying steroids are bad while there's a syringe in your arm at the same time.

[md40022]

All of my running is done via the R&H and my success rate in OOTP25 is 62.5%, which is not particularly good at all.

I play with the real Cubs roster. There's not a lot of speed there, admittedly. And like I said before, I am probably more aggressive than the average manager meaning maybe I run on a pitcher / catcher combo that I shouldn't run on a little too often...... 62.5% is not a good success rate though.

You're at 91.9%. You do have a much faster team. Knowing that we both use the R&H as our only method of running, would I be at 91.9% and be able to steal on demand too with a faster roster? I don't know. But I will say for a fact that I absolutely do *NOT* consider the run & hit button to be a cheat code in my experience hahaha.

You mentioned you're still playing OOTP22..... maybe this is something that was specific to 22 and/or got cleaned up a little bit at some point after 22?

Obviously we can all play however we want, but if I was seeing your results I would be looking at a different ways of playing - whether it was changing modifiers to make stealing harder or just simply limiting myself with it. Personally, if I found a cheat to the game I would do everything I could to avoid the cheat.

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by md40022

If this is in-fact the cheat code that you say it is, where you can just R&H all day long and steal 1000000 bases a season and average 7+ runs per game but yet you continue to use the cheat code with the frequency that you do ----- it kind of waters down any issue that you claim to have with the problem though. No?


If this is legitimately as broken as you say it is, wouldn't you implement some limitations on it. Maybe limit how many times a game you use it. Or limit it to practical situations where it would be used in real life, or something.

Saying that it's broken and that it is a way to beat the game, yet willingly entering said cheat code every time it is remotely possible to do so is kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth. I guess I'm a little confused with how you say that it's a bad thing, but then you also have 300+ steals 40 games into the season. It's like saying steroids are bad while there's a syringe in your arm at the same time.

Whether I exploit a cheat code or not does nothing to take away from the fact that it exists. The reason I still use it is that I have been playing this sim for 6 years with gradual SB increases but just in the last two have come to fully understand and exploit it to the fullest, partially to demonstrate how big of an issue it is. Without those screen shots, this would and probably still is being dismissed.

I would LOVE to make stealing / run & hit, take pitch decisions with the "real" potential outcomes.

And, if I were to start a new sim, I would probably turn off all baserunning decisions and never use them again because there is no way to make real strategic decisions with real percentages with the way it is. Take my boy Dardin in my screen shot. He's a 30 runner with 70 steal rating. He's awesome at run & hit - steal at 85-90% clip. And with 30 running, they never pitch out against him. How do you call a run & hit on 3-2 count with 1 out knowing this, though in real world you might want to with contact hitter with high DP potential?

I can make house rules (and I would if I started a new sim and chose to manage baserunning) but again, that isn't the point.

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by md40022

All of my running is done via the R&H and my success rate in OOTP25 is 62.5%, which is not particularly good at all.

I play with the real Cubs roster. There's not a lot of speed there, admittedly. And like I said before, I am probably more aggressive than the average manager meaning maybe I run on a pitcher / catcher combo that I shouldn't run on a little too often...... 62.5% is not a good success rate though.

You're at 91.9%. You do have a much faster team. Knowing that we both use the R&H as our only method of running, would I be at 91.9% and be able to steal on demand too with a faster roster? I don't know. But I will say for a fact that I absolutely do *NOT* consider the run & hit button to be a cheat code in my experience hahaha.

You mentioned you're still playing OOTP22..... maybe this is something that was specific to 22 and/or got cleaned up a little bit at some point after 22?

Obviously we can all play however we want, but if I was seeing your results I would be looking at a different ways of playing - whether it was changing modifiers to make stealing harder or just simply limiting myself with it. Personally, if I found a cheat to the game I would do everything I could to avoid the cheat.

If you run & hit with anything below 65 steal rating, they will suck and it won't be worth it. Baseball analytics showed long ago that low success rates cost runs, so I almost never run & hit with anyone below 65.

My original question for you was whether there were ANY pitch outs on 1-0, 2-1, 3-1, 2-2 or 3-2 in version 25. My second question was whether run & hit and steal had same success rate. I sincerely hope that both of these were somewhat adjusted in 25 (especially the second).

If not, I strongly suspect that any 70 steal rating guy can steal left and right at an 80-90% clip if you run & hit on one of those counts above and it is still a cheat code. You just may not be exploiting it.

Like I said, I wouldn't control stealing (or perhaps even play out games anymore) if I started a new sim. I do like making pitching decisions, though, so I probably still would play it out.