Poll about Moneyball

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Wouldn't the best way to figure it out is divide team salary by wins?

Here are the figures for the 2022 MLB season. Teams qualifying for the post-season are indicated by an asterisk.

Club  Final Payroll  Wins  Payroll/Wins
---------------------------------------
BAL     60,327,739    83      726,840
CLE *   69,080,715    92      750,877
OAK     49,066,454    60      817,774
PIT     61,196,070    62      987,033
TBA *   97,486,640    86    1,133,566
MIA     83,642,932    69    1,212,216
SEA *  116,266,600    90    1,291,851
ARI     97,830,686    74    1,322,036
KCA     93,813,025    65    1,443,277
MIL    135,169,682    86    1,571,740
HOU *  187,513,008   106    1,768,991
SLN *  165,364,899    93    1,778,117
CIN    112,835,589    62    1,819,929
ATL *  189,694,231   101    1,878,161
MIN    151,057,543    78    1,936,635
TOR *  180,692,506    92    1,964,049
DET    130,977,815    66    1,984,512
SFN    162,004,408    81    2,000,054
COL    137,612,309    68    2,023,710
CHN    152,535,284    74    2,061,288
TEX    145,561,602    68    2,140,612
ANA    174,752,725    73    2,393,873
CHA    194,558,797    81    2,401,960
LAN *  270,591,767   111    2,437,764
WAS    136,084,058    55    2,474,256
SDN *  221,824,718    89    2,492,413
NYA *  254,720,765    99    2,572,937
NYN *  274,912,453   101    2,721,905
PHI *  238,496,394    87    2,741,338
BOS    217,089,051    78    2,783,193

[Amazin69]

Heh, can't wait to see the Mets' figures for this season. Should be something like $4,000,000 per W, right?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Heh, can't wait to see the Mets' figures for this season. Should be something like $4,000,000 per W, right?

I want to see its luxury tax payroll. It's going to have a huge luxury tax bill.

[thehef]

As they saying goes, "it's better to be lucky than good."

The Spurs were extremely fortunate to get Tim Duncan, perhaps both the most selfless and skilled player ever. With David Robinson as their star, the Spurs were a solid 55+ win team for nearly a decade. Then just six games into the 1996-97 season, The Admiral broke his foot and missed the rest of the season. The Spurs floudered without him, finishing with the 3rd-worst record in the league, and then winning the draft lottery. And just to be clear, there was no suspense as to whom would be the top pick in the '97 draf; Duncan was the consensus, no-brainer top pick by whichever team was going to get lucky with the pingpong balls.

There was no brilliance in the sequence of events that led to the Spurs getting Tim Duncan. And there is no run of multiple titles in the 1999 & the 2000's without him. The Spurs certainly did a nice job of finding great supporting players with low draft picks, and an argument can be made that the Spurs created an environment where players wanted to stay. But when you look at the overall character & demeanor - not to (re-)mention his greatness - it's worth suggesting that perhaps Duncan (surely with help from the equally high-character, but not-quite-as-great David Robinson) actually created that environment, and the Spurs organization merely followed the cues.

This subject somewhat reminds of the 80's Lakers and the heaps of priase that Jerry West continues to receive - per the commonly accepted narrative but no actual evidence - of being its architect. Reality tells a different story if we look at - in approximate order - those most-responsible for the 80's Lakers success (outide of the front office):

1a. Jabbar - in the convo as the greatest player ever - arrived in LA due to Pete Newell (GM at the time) and Bill Sharman (coach at the time). West had just retired and would soon be hired as the Lakers' coach, where he would underachieve for three years.
1b. Magic was drafted by Sharman & owner Cooke with the #1 pick that was acquired by Sharman. The pick was against West's advice (Jerry, as a Lakers scout, wanted Sidney Moncrief).

Right there, West (who would become Lakers GM in the 1982 offseason) was handed two of the greatest players in NBA history - one not only in his prime, but who would defy father time and play as an all-star for years, and the other who pretty much reached his prime immediately.

3. Riley - Hired by Doc Buss. West had nothing to do with it.
4. Worthy - Nice pick by Jerry (high pick handed to him thanks to Sharman). West often gets credit for taking Worthy instead of Dominique. But who's to say that Dominique wouldn't have flourished running the break with Magic? I mean, Tree Rollins and Doc Rivers weren't exactly Jabbar & Magic.
5. Wilkes - Signed by Sharman
6. Scott - Nice pick/trade. A bold move by J West.
7. Coop - Drafted by Sharman
8. Nixon - Drafted by Sharman
Chones, Rambis, McAdoo - Sharman acquisitions
Green, M. Thompson - Nice moves by West

We can certainly quibble about the order of these players, but that's not the point.

The bottom line was that West was handed a champion team & top draft slot, including two of the greatest players in NBA history - one of whom he wouldn't have had if it had been up to him. Then someone who would turn out to be one of the greatest coaches in NBA history was named coach by West's owner. What did Jerry do with that? He did a very nice job of maintaining the championship-level team, making a few nice picks and a few nice trades. He did NOT do anything spectacular. The evidence just isn't there, unless we are just blindly assigning greatness to being there and doing a few nice things, without looking at context.

Finally, people like to also point to what West did as GM in Memphis as evidence of his front office greatness. But the reality is that he took a bad team and turned into a marginal contender for a few years. Then that team flamed out. The history of the NBA is littered with short & unremarkable turnarounds like we saw in Memphis.

(Sorry to have turned this into a semi-rant against the idea that Jerry West is GM Jesus )

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

<snipped>

Bots can now quote others & act like it is their own?

Please don't quote bots because then we have to edit your post and we might not even notice the quote.

Yeah, in some ways some are actually kind of smart, but in other ways they're still pretty stupid.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by kq76

Please don't quote bots because then we have to edit your post and we might not even notice the quote.

Yeah, in some ways some are actually kind of smart, but in other ways they're still pretty stupid.

Sry, didn't know. I was just surprised it almost literally copied me word for word.