Why should you ever pull a starter before he's tired?

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

A) You have been a member of this board for barely one year, so I do not value your opinions about the past.

B) Suggested Roles are merely that. I have had solid success ignoring that for many versions.

C) It is a poor assumption that anyone on this board reads you posts, let alone making demands that they do so.

All told, I find your arrogant ignorance to be appalling.

Well, that was an embarrassing fail for you.

You could have said "oh, that is interesting and unexpected. It used to work before OOTP 23" and no one would have thought anything about it.

But no, you went straight to ad hominem and revealed something about yourself

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

A) You have been a member of this board for barely one year, so I do not value your opinions about the past.

B) Suggested Roles are merely that. I have had solid success ignoring that for many versions.

C) It is a poor assumption that anyone on this board reads you posts, let alone making demands that they do so.

All told, I find your arrogant ignorance to be appalling.

And I find your gate keeping to be banworthy. Hey, we’re finding something out about everyone!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

And I find your gate keeping to be banworthy. Hey, we’re finding something out about everyone!

Why? Its just talk. It's not like he's a mod abusing the power of the position.

[Pelican]

Is it too much to ask for less drama? No one enjoys a soap opera. Ultimately the posturing and personal attacks are just boring.

[Sweed]

To get back on track I'll throw in my observations based on managing every inning of every game with a game imported from v4 all the way to v24.

Pitchers do have on and off days IMHO. I have no idea if that is caused by a modifier before a game or something that is only found out by me and the pitcher in real time.

From my experience in games, situations can "snowball" whether it be a SP or RP, but in the spirit of this thread I'll stick with starters.

Some games that IF hit or error, after two "easy outs" can be the start of it, along with so many other things. Suddenly what should have been a clean inning ends up with runs coming across the plate. The SP comes out for the next inning and never recovers.

Same situation in another game the SP comes out for the next inning and K's the side and gives up nothing the rest of the way.

Like real life I've had guys have that bad inning and recover, and I've had the cruising and crash too. I've seen my SP do it, I've seen the AI's SP do it. I've gone the route of thinking "the ratings will take over and he'll be fine", and he was.
I've gone the same route and the SP was destroyed. Over time I've seen enough to "know"(IMHO) that today just isn't his day.

As one who plays out all of my games I could write page after page of scenarios, good and bad, I've seen. I'm sure anyone here could do the same. Is it random or is there something coded in that causes the ebb and flow?

Me? I do believer there is an in game "confidence" that can go up, down, or crash. Basically a "hot and cold" streak that can develop in real time within a game, and can also carry over into the next performance. These hot and cold streaks can be maintained (hot streak) and overcome (cold streak) within the game, same as real life.

Some can say there's nothing there and it's all placebo and that's fine if that is your opinion. But OOTP's goal is to simulate reality and take us into a baseball universe. That we are here discussing whether the in game streaks are "real" or "imagined" means they have done their job, I think.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, I agree that, whether people think it "messes with the stats" or not, there's some kind of "this guy is whacked today" effect that kicks in when a pitcher, starter or reliever, gets bombed. OP is free to test this out by leaving in their starter for 100 pitches or whatever no matter what but I don't think they'll enjoy the results. I'm not so sure that there's a "this guy doesn't have it in advance" effect, although that'd be interesting too (in fact I think one way to handle starter/reliever issues would be to assign a "command" rating to each player's pitch and check against that every day to see if they're able to use it effectively or not - thus, a guy who throws 3 pitches but can only really count on 2 of them might be OK to start some days and might get the TTL penalty in others because he's effectively only throwing 2, whereas a guy who throws, say, 5-6 pitches might always be acceptable as a starter even if his stuff is kind of trash).

And sorry if this is uncivil but I'm just plain not going to stand for gatekeeping. Some of the most insightful posts in here are made by people without 20 years of experience playing the game. This is not or at least shouldn't be something that's more or less frozen in time like Strat and so "experience" playing the versions before, like, BABIP was a thing barely even count in my book. This is not a large enough community to introduce hierarchies like this and besides if we were I know I'd prefer a hierarchy based on people who actually know what they're talking about.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

And sorry if this is uncivil but I'm just plain not going to stand for gatekeeping. Some of the most insightful posts in here are made by people without 20 years of experience playing the game.

I didn't understand the overreaction as well, but the idea that someone's tenure on this forum is somehow indicative of their knowledge of the game or the amount of time they've been playing it is inaccurate. I'm no 20-year veteran (hats off to you guys), but have been playing pretty reliably since 19.

It's a good principle to respond to what people say rather than who you think they are. Appealing to authority is a fallacy precisely because sometimes smart people say stupid things while the converse is also true. So we should keep our focus on the opinions, not the opiners.

[Amazin' Blue]

I'll say this much, as someone who has been a play out every game person since, I don't know, version 10 or so... yanking starters when they get shelled is certainly a good way to avoid cold streaks.

(Insert new can of worms opened here!)

And I am totally convinced that cold streaks impact performance. No science to back that up, but probably a few thousand games simmed one batter at a time is all the science I need.

Starter on a cold streak is lucky to get through 5 IP no matter his ratings. You really have to manage them out of it.

Originally Posted by Sweed

To get back on track I'll throw in my observations based on managing every inning of every game with a game imported from v4 all the way to v24.

Pitchers do have on and off days IMHO. I have no idea if that is caused by a modifier before a game or something that is only found out by me and the pitcher in real time.

From my experience in games, situations can "snowball" whether it be a SP or RP, but in the spirit of this thread I'll stick with starters.

Some games that IF hit or error, after two "easy outs" can be the start of it, along with so many other things. Suddenly what should have been a clean inning ends up with runs coming across the plate. The SP comes out for the next inning and never recovers.

Same situation in another game the SP comes out for the next inning and K's the side and gives up nothing the rest of the way.

Like real life I've had guys have that bad inning and recover, and I've had the cruising and crash too. I've seen my SP do it, I've seen the AI's SP do it. I've gone the route of thinking "the ratings will take over and he'll be fine", and he was.
I've gone the same route and the SP was destroyed. Over time I've seen enough to "know"(IMHO) that today just isn't his day.

As one who plays out all of my games I could write page after page of scenarios, good and bad, I've seen. I'm sure anyone here could do the same. Is it random or is there something coded in that causes the ebb and flow?

Me? I do believer there is an in game "confidence" that can go up, down, or crash. Basically a "hot and cold" streak that can develop in real time within a game, and can also carry over into the next performance. These hot and cold streaks can be maintained (hot streak) and overcome (cold streak) within the game, same as real life.

Some can say there's nothing there and it's all placebo and that's fine if that is your opinion. But OOTP's goal is to simulate reality and take us into a baseball universe. That we are here discussing whether the in game streaks are "real" or "imagined" means they have done their job, I think.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Sweed

To get back on track I'll throw in my observations based on managing every inning of every game with a game imported from v4 all the way to v24.

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

And sorry if this is uncivil but I'm just plain not going to stand for gatekeeping. Some of the most insightful posts in here are made by people without 20 years of experience playing the game. This is not or at least shouldn't be something that's more or less frozen in time like Strat and so "experience" playing the versions before, like, BABIP was a thing barely even count in my book. This is not a large enough community to introduce hierarchies like this and besides if we were I know I'd prefer a hierarchy based on people who actually know what they're talking about.

I think this was posted as a response to one post made in this thread that had an overbearing tone?

But since I did mention my game going from version to version I want to make it crystal clear... In no way was I saying I know more than others because I have played for over 20 years. It was simply a way to say I had a large sample size that I based my opinion on. I can't honestly say I gave this SP issue a thought when I started with v4, and frankly I don't remember. I can however say I can't recall a time when I didn't have my current opinion on SP, and really all pitchers in general, be it v24 or any before.

There are many newer users who's posts I enjoy reading. A few of them are posting in this thread. Time on the boards, or time playing OOTP, is not what determines the quality of one's posts.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Amazin' Blue

I'll say this much, as someone who has been a play out every game person since, I don't know, version 10 or so... yanking starters when they get shelled is certainly a good way to avoid cold streaks.

(Insert new can of worms opened here!)

And I am totally convinced that cold streaks impact performance. No science to back that up, but probably a few thousand games simmed one batter at a time is all the science I need.

Starter on a cold streak is lucky to get through 5 IP no matter his ratings. You really have to manage them out of it.

Pretty much my experience too.

You should see my SP in my current season that was at ~85% quality starts 13 starts into the season. Got rocked one game, then two, and I kept throwing him out there thinking he'll pitch his way out of it. He's just too good. ~6 starts later I caved and moved him to the pen, pitched him in low stress situations, and if he gave me one good inning I took him out. It's now September and I'm fighting for a playoff spot. Brought him back to the rotation and while not his dominate self he is holding his own.

It's the worst case of penthouse to outhouse I can recall on one of my teams that wasn't accompanied by an age related reduction in skills.

[Amazin' Blue]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Pretty much my experience too.

You should see my SP in my current season that was at ~85% quality starts 13 starts into the season. Got rocked one game, then two, and I kept throwing him out there thinking he'll pitch his way out of it. He's just too good. ~6 starts later I caved and moved him to the pen, pitched him in low stress situations, and if he gave me one good inning I took him out. It's now September and I'm fighting for a playoff spot. Brought him back to the rotation and while not his dominate self he is holding his own.

It's the worst case of penthouse to outhouse I can recall on one of my teams that wasn't accompanied by an age related reduction in skills.

I'll do whatever takes to get a SP out of a cold streak including pulling them early if they have three or four good innings in a start.

Not sure how the streak algorithm works (trade secret evidently) but it seems to be some function of appearances, time, and performance. The equivalent with hitters is putting them in high odds platoon situations though, IME, getting hitters out of cold streaks is a lot harder.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Sweed

You should see my SP in my current season that was at ~85% quality starts 13 starts into the season. Got rocked one game, then two, and I kept throwing him out there thinking he'll pitch his way out of it. He's just too good. ~6 starts later I caved and moved him to the pen, pitched him in low stress situations, and if he gave me one good inning I took him out. It's now September and I'm fighting for a playoff spot. Brought him back to the rotation and while not his dominate self he is holding his own.

Do you have player personalities or team chemistry turned on? I wonder if that would toggle this streaky behavior.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Do you have player personalities or team chemistry turned on? I wonder if that would toggle this streaky behavior.

Yes player personalities are on.

Coaches' chemistry I don't use. I don't see where my pitching coach not liking my batting coach, base coach etc. should be making waves with the team. If it was limited to how each coach got along with the manager I would probably use it. But if you couldn't get along with the head man I'm thinking you wouldn't be there. Just my preference.

I'm firmly in the camp of not wanting to know what triggers this behavior ( I like fog of war), but I am glad it's there. Even if it's an extreme outlier on my team. Adds to the immersion and fun.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Yes player personalities are on.

That could be relevant because I have simmed many seasons and never really detected this hot/cold behavior. But then again, I have always had personalities turned off.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Sweed

To get back on track I'll throw in my observations based on managing every inning of every game with a game imported from v4 all the way to v24.

Pitchers do have on and off days IMHO. I have no idea if that is caused by a modifier before a game or something that is only found out by me and the pitcher in real time.

From my experience in games, situations can "snowball" whether it be a SP or RP, but in the spirit of this thread I'll stick with starters.

Some games that IF hit or error, after two "easy outs" can be the start of it, along with so many other things. Suddenly what should have been a clean inning ends up with runs coming across the plate. The SP comes out for the next inning and never recovers.

Same situation in another game the SP comes out for the next inning and K's the side and gives up nothing the rest of the way.

Like real life I've had guys have that bad inning and recover, and I've had the cruising and crash too. I've seen my SP do it, I've seen the AI's SP do it. I've gone the route of thinking "the ratings will take over and he'll be fine", and he was.
I've gone the same route and the SP was destroyed. Over time I've seen enough to "know"(IMHO) that today just isn't his day.

As one who plays out all of my games I could write page after page of scenarios, good and bad, I've seen. I'm sure anyone here could do the same. Is it random or is there something coded in that causes the ebb and flow?

Me? I do believer there is an in game "confidence" that can go up, down, or crash. Basically a "hot and cold" streak that can develop in real time within a game, and can also carry over into the next performance. These hot and cold streaks can be maintained (hot streak) and overcome (cold streak) within the game, same as real life.

Some can say there's nothing there and it's all placebo and that's fine if that is your opinion. But OOTP's goal is to simulate reality and take us into a baseball universe. That we are here discussing whether the in game streaks are "real" or "imagined" means they have done their job, I think.

I pretty much agree with 100% of this.



And I play with player personalities off. So I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with that. I've been shutting personalities off for at least the last several versions and I still do see starting pitchers get lit up from time to time in a way that makes me think it's something built into the game as a guy just having an "off" day.

[JasonC23]

Sweed, I'm fairly certain this is the "gatekeeping" post that people are referring to. Nothing you said is remotely close to gatekeeping.

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

A) You have been a member of this board for barely one year, so I do not value your opinions about the past.

B) Suggested Roles are merely that. I have had solid success ignoring that for many versions.

C) It is a poor assumption that anyone on this board reads you posts, let alone making demands that they do so.

All told, I find your arrogant ignorance to be appalling.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah it wasn’t Sweed, it was the above post. I feel like if you’re worried about this, it’s probably not you.

[Deft]

Originally Posted by Sweed

To get back on track I'll throw in my observations based on managing every inning of every game with a game imported from v4 all the way to v24.

Pitchers do have on and off days IMHO. I have no idea if that is caused by a modifier before a game or something that is only found out by me and the pitcher in real time.

From my experience in games, situations can "snowball" whether it be a SP or RP, but in the spirit of this thread I'll stick with starters.

Some games that IF hit or error, after two "easy outs" can be the start of it, along with so many other things. Suddenly what should have been a clean inning ends up with runs coming across the plate. The SP comes out for the next inning and never recovers.

Same situation in another game the SP comes out for the next inning and K's the side and gives up nothing the rest of the way.

Like real life I've had guys have that bad inning and recover, and I've had the cruising and crash too. I've seen my SP do it, I've seen the AI's SP do it. I've gone the route of thinking "the ratings will take over and he'll be fine", and he was.
I've gone the same route and the SP was destroyed. Over time I've seen enough to "know"(IMHO) that today just isn't his day.

As one who plays out all of my games I could write page after page of scenarios, good and bad, I've seen. I'm sure anyone here could do the same. Is it random or is there something coded in that causes the ebb and flow?

Me? I do believer there is an in game "confidence" that can go up, down, or crash. Basically a "hot and cold" streak that can develop in real time within a game, and can also carry over into the next performance. These hot and cold streaks can be maintained (hot streak) and overcome (cold streak) within the game, same as real life.

Some can say there's nothing there and it's all placebo and that's fine if that is your opinion. But OOTP's goal is to simulate reality and take us into a baseball universe. That we are here discussing whether the in game streaks are "real" or "imagined" means they have done their job, I think.

I also sim out every at bat and have done it for over 150 seasons, for a long time in real life. I agree with the observations.


But to be more specific, I often see starters come out and mow down 4 perfect innings then in either the 5th or 6th innings, presumably when hitters see pitchers a third time, things go bad. It often starts with a back to back home runs or a walk and a double followed by a single, and then mushrooms. When this happens and a couple of runs go on the board, expect 7-8 runs unless you do something about it.

On the flip side, first inning rallies don't forebode a bad outing. But if the pitcher gives up 3 in the first and 2 in the second it is over. A clean second inning is a sign the train is getting back on the tracks.

[redsixerfan]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

This is actually what mound visits are supposed to help with.

So mound visits have more effect than just buying your bullpen warm up time in OOTP 24?

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by redsixerfan

So mound visits have more effect than just buying your bullpen warm up time in OOTP 24?

It’s also a place where the pitcher and the catcher can tell you if a guy is cooked. You can also of course look at the meter at the bottom of the player card if you’re in 3D mode but I’m pretty sure walking out to the mound will let you know if a guy is rattled or not (I’m not totally sure because I let the AI do pitching strategies and there’s no way to just do mound visits without turning that back on).