One Conclusion I have Come to...

[swoboda]

So......from March thru October I always have two games running, one is GM only, the other one I manage all 162, every inning.
I find much to enjoy about both.
I agree that OOTP is best described as a game with annual incremental improvements. But that's fine as it was already a very good game ten yrs ago! I didn't expect anything positive when the dev's deservedly took their opportunity to sell, so I am not disappointed. My interest level is still there.
If we continue to get modest improvements that's not a problem for me.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

PSUColonel, in my OOTP experience, my ignorance is bliss... I don't play in the GM Mode... not my interest... I'm into graphics and 3D animation... not the finances and team management... however, I can sympathize with you a lot... we all have our frustrations with certain areas of OOTP Baseball, but most of us have learned to live with them and not dwell on them... otherwise we can't enjoy the game.

I hope you and others like you can find a baseball game you enjoy playing like many of us have in OOTP.

Meanwhile it seems that OOTP is the best choice any of you have for baseball management.

Yea, that's kind of the thing though EC. Management at one time WAS the focus of OOTP. We were told over and over again that wouldn't change and was the main priority even though PT and 3-D were coming. We were told these new part of the game were going to make so much money it was going to make the management part of the games the greatest it has ever been.

I think the reason most people started playing text based sports simulations in the 1990's was for the management aspect. This was something you could't find anywhere else back then. Most of the users/customers came from places like FPS Baseball & Football or Tony LaRussa Baseball 3 (PC) or Championship Manager. Championship manager was the first. (now FM)
Then came other titles such as Sick as a Parrot (soccer) Front Office Football, and in 1999 OOTP.

OOTP probably started more as a "game of baseball" type text sim, but quickly moved into the management aspects of the sport. It grew and grew and grew based on management concepts. This is why so many of us expect it to be a GM & Baseball simulator first, as opposed to a gamey representation of baseball. Now, I am not saying that OOTP is a complete gamey baseball PC program...far from it. The only point I think myself and some others are trying to make is that OOTP appears to have maybe abandoned some of it's roots for other ventures such as PT or 3-D graphics and playing "barbie fashion plate" within the game. To mean of us, that is time that could have been spent perfecting the AI GM experience. We just believe this to be the heart and soul of OOTP....even if it isn't anymore. It's been 25 years nearly, so you will forgive me if along the line I didn't exactly catch where the lines began to blur. They aren't as blurry now for me however, as I can look and see that the financial and management aspect of the game really has not been augmented or vastly improved in the past 6 or 7 versions now. Incidentally this is right around the time PT came into being. I am not saying one has anything to do with the other, since I know how making such an observation appears. 3-D came very soon after. There is nothing inherently wrong with either. In fact at the time I was under the impression that different development teams' were handling these projects, and that core game development wouldn't be touched or affected. In fact I was truly under the impression the extra money really would help propel OOTP's core game to unprecedented heights. As far as I was concerned, Markus was on his way to truly creating the Football Manager for Baseball.

Then came the news of a partnership with Jim Gindin and Front Office Football. I think I can gauge for a hell of a lot of people when I say they were very excited about this project. It seemed OOTPD was staying true to its roots and continuing Front Office type simulation projects. Suddenly (but not without warning) OOTPD announced it was terminating it's deal with Jim Gindin, and many were very upset about this and even sided with Jim.It wasn't until months later we learned the likely reason this project fell through...the sale of OOTP to Com2US. A Korean company specializing in micro-transaction games.

Once again we were told not to worry...this will propel OOTP to the greatest of heights. Now to be fair, I probably haven't given it enough time under Com2Us to write the rest of the story here, but I think you can hopefully see some of the reasons for pessimism. Those combined with a real lack of communication on the part of the development team, and just the general direction things seem to be taking, definitely has some people concerned. After all, this has been a hobby for so many for so long. It is not my intention to insult or offend anyone, I am simply trying to be honest and articulate about the way I think many people feel nowadays. As I said in another thread, I receive lots and lots of PMs from people who think this way. I am not the only one, maybe just more vocal than others.

Anyway, I hope this clarifies where myself and other may be "coming from" a bit. I am open to discussing anything related to OOTP here in the forums so long as the discourse is thoughtful and respectful.

Thanks

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by swoboda

So......from March thru October I always have two games running, one is GM only, the other one I manage all 162, every inning.
I find much to enjoy about both.
I agree that OOTP is best described as a game with annual incremental improvements. But that's fine as it was already a very good game ten yrs ago! I didn't expect anything positive when the dev's deservedly took their opportunity to sell, so I am not disappointed. My interest level is still there.
If we continue to get modest improvements that's not a problem for me.

I am not opposed to modest improvements year by year, but I do think so of those improvements need to finish many of the "unfinished" features already half-baked into the game...this would include certain aspects of scouting (task list for sure) and much of the team chemistry and staff-player relations. I am not sure what kind of resources OOTP has....all I know is that we were told point blank that PT and 3D would NOT take away from the core game development. So if this is true, what has been going on?

[Rain King]

These threads are exhausting.

[Rain King]

OOTP has ALWAYS been a great baseball simulation first and then [insert a hundred ways to play the game] second.

That includes "GM management game".

Absolutely advocate for your way to play the game as the developers have always tried to implement/improve the various playing styles, but lets also not be revisionist historians.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Colonel if you want to venture into other games check out Legend Bowl. The dev is super active and their duscird is active with various mods. It's American style football it's pixel art, think 8 bit but it has a really fun franchise mode that you can play in past or present. So yes leather helmets. You can sim your games or play them out. It might look simple cause it's pixel art but the game play is challenging.

This game is a real gem. Either if you want a 2k/Madden football experience or a franchise management experience.

Don't get so hung up on ootp. There are plenty of games out there.

[Syd Thrift]

TBH I thought the 3D animation stuff was just going to be a sidelight as well but then I started playing with it and to me at least it's an integral part of the game. If anything I want to see more play types animated - there are still some rare plays, like the batter getting on base but a runner being called out because he was hit by a batted ball, that don't have animations (oh yeah, and balks - even the PBP is like "I don't know what just happened"). Having the the animations in place make this game enjoyable to just watch and IMO makes it fun and immersive on the level of Microleague Baseball or Earl Weaver rather than Strat-O-Matic or APBA back in the day.

If anything I would love to see a lot more movement on this front - different body types (tall players, short players, FAT GUYS) (SERIOUSLY GIVE ME CC SABATHIA NOW), players wearing their uniforms differently (love to see guys wearing stirrups vs the modern long pants, for instance), different batting stances and pitching windups (would also love if a closed stance, for example, came with some wrinkles in how it makes the player play the way pitching angles affect, for example, the curve). Oh right, and uniform numbers! But, like, even the new uniforms dealing better with 3D textures is kind of huge, as is, yes, the introduction of pants. When you play out the games like I do, it's off-putting and immersion-breaking to see guys wearing inaccurate uniforms and I'm glad that got addressed.

I think the big thing there is that just because this isn't a big add for *you* doesn't mean it's not a big add to *the game*. If the game is going a different direction than you want it to go, sure, that's a beef to have. It's just plain not accurate to call the huge, huge changes over the last 3 years or so as tiny/incremental improvements just because the big feature adds aren't something you use (for that matter, the biggest change from 22 to 23 was that they overhauled the game engine, which is exactly one of those things that people complain about needing to do every single year but then when it's done it's basically ignored because the results aren't sexy enough).

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Colonel if you want to venture into other games check out Legend Bowl. The dev is super active and their duscird is active with various mods. It's American style football it's pixel art, think 8 bit but it has a really fun franchise mode that you can play in past or present. So yes leather helmets. You can sim your games or play them out. It might look simple cause it's pixel art but the game play is challenging.

This game is a real gem. Either if you want a 2k/Madden football experience or a franchise management experience.

Don't get so hung up on ootp. There are plenty of games out there.

lmfao please keep going with these janky 3rd rate games; it's like you're secretly endorsing OOTP by comparing it to all these games that simply can't do what OOTP does. Like, if you're going to talk about American football sims, at least cite ones that do a decent job of it (the Tom Landry sequel whose name completely escapes me right now, which kills me because the creator posts here sometimes, or DDS:PF for two examples... hell, I'd probably put Football Mogul or the ghost of Front Office Football over the above).

There of course are other games out there but, like, do you think people aren't playing them as well?

[Fabtron7]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I really don't care about visual graphics and the like as long as the UI is sleek and professional and can display games' with a well thought out and good looking game cast style webcast.

I can tell you from the PT side of things there isn't much interest in improved graphical updates either.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

lmfao please keep going with these janky 3rd rate games; it's like you're secretly endorsing OOTP by comparing it to all these games that simply can't do what OOTP does. Like, if you're going to talk about American football sims, at least cite ones that do a decent job of it (the Tom Landry sequel whose name completely escapes me right now, which kills me because the creator posts here sometimes, or DDS:PF for two examples... hell, I'd probably put Football Mogul or the ghost of Front Office Football over the above).

There of course are other games out there but, like, do you think people aren't playing them as well?

Remind me of when I asked your opinion on anything? I'm trying to help out the Colonel. Don't care what you think but you are so passively aggressive rude I was forced to reply.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Ootp forum is basically Syd the know it all and Sweed the get off my lawn grandpa. No wonder new blood doesn't flock to forums.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Ootp forum is basically Syd the know it all and Sweed the get off my lawn grandpa. No wonder new blood doesn't flock to forums.

No, seriously, please tell more people about Baseball Mogul. Nobody on these forums have ever heard of Baseball Mogul.

Also, when you post to public fora, you get public opinions. Don't like it? Don't post inane crap.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

No, seriously, please tell more people about Baseball Mogul. Nobody on these forums have ever heard of Baseball Mogul.

Also, when you post to public fora, you get public opinions. Don't like it? Don't post inane crap.

Again know it all Syd got his threads mixed up. Never mentioned mogul here bud

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

This is just a suggestion, so take how ever you wish. Maybe if you started your threads with something other than gloom and doom about OOTP they might lead some where.

Your first 2 posts in this thread you said how OOTP is boring and not fun.

How does that invite conversation?

If the game is boring and not fun, maybe it's time to try another game?

I can only speak for myself, but I spend hours every single day playing OOTP. I'm far from bored and am having a ton of fun.

Please, spare me the "Don't you want to see OOTP improved" response.

Yes, I want the game to improve and grow. It does every year.

I just prefer to spend my time enjoying OOTP. Much more fun and a lot less boring than coming here and reading doom and gloom posts.

What he said.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

lmfao please keep going with these janky 3rd rate games; it's like you're secretly endorsing OOTP by comparing it to all these games that simply can't do what OOTP does. Like, if you're going to talk about American football sims, at least cite ones that do a decent job of it (the Tom Landry sequel whose name completely escapes me right now, which kills me because the creator posts here sometimes, or DDS:PF for two examples... hell, I'd probably put Football Mogul or the ghost of Front Office Football over the above).

There of course are other games out there but, like, do you think people aren't playing them as well?

Have you even played legend bowl? Screenshot your steam library. No where did I compare it to ootp. I told Colonel of another type of franchise game.

The ootp defenders always have to go on the attack. Mention any other game or any ootp weakness and boom get attacked.

I was actually being civil in this thread. But all these passive aggressive insults from ootp defenders turned it into flame war

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Have you even played legend bowl? Screenshot your steam library. No where did I compare it to ootp. I told Colonel of another type of franchise game.

The ootp defenders always have to go on the attack. Mention any other game or any ootp weakness and boom get attacked.

I was actually being civil in this thread. But all these passive aggressive insults from ootp defenders turned it into flame war

Nope, I in fact even just mentioned two other games in another thread. I believe I looked at Legend Bowl very briefly but tossed it aside because I'm just not interested in arcade games. Why you're attempting to shoehorn it into discussions of actual "competitors" to OOTP is beyond me. Like, I even mentioned several games that *could* be deemed as reasonably close to OOTP in terms of having a robust simulation / strategy aspect to them in my response. However, I guess all you're seeing is people dumping on you because you took someone's labor of love / retro recreation of early Madden / Tecmo Bowl style games and decided to evangelize it into an OOTP "competitior" and instead of being like "oh yeah, right, this isn't that kind of game at all", you chose to double down.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Nope, I in fact even just mentioned two other games in another thread. I believe I looked at Legend Bowl very briefly but tossed it aside because I'm just not interested in arcade games. Why you're attempting to shoehorn it into discussions of actual "competitors" to OOTP is beyond me. Like, I even mentioned several games that *could* be deemed as reasonably close to OOTP in terms of having a robust simulation / strategy aspect to them in my response. However, I guess all you're seeing is people dumping on you because you took someone's labor of love / retro recreation of early Madden / Tecmo Bowl style games and decided to evangelize it into an OOTP "competitior" and instead of being like "oh yeah, right, this isn't that kind of game at all", you chose to double down.

No it all Syd, Do people actually believe the poop you sling?

My statement was "Colonel if you want to venture into other games check out Legend Bowl."

Nope never compared it to ootp. And you are calling a game you never played 3rd rate abd janky. Get over yourself bud. Aren't you the one akways talking about evidence. You got none cause you dont own it.

Did anyone ask if you like arcade games?

It's about letting Colonel know there are a ton of other games out there that do management if your aren't limited to sports or MLB.

If I wanted to compare a game to ootp I would just bring up FM. Nice try ootp

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I am not opposed to modest improvements year by year, but I do think so of those improvements need to finish many of the "unfinished" features already half-baked into the game?

If I have any complaint with OOTP, that is it -unfinished features. I started with OOTP2 and it quickly replaced Front Page Sports Baseball as my favourite game. I tried many other sports sims -baseball and others- but always end up comparing them to OOTP. (I am not fan of FM series just way too much micromanaging detail for someone with a limited soccer background as myself).

OOTP will always be a game I play even if they were to stop making new versions. It has almost everything I look for in a game but it is disappointing in some respects when I think what it could have been in terms of it becoming the perfect game for me.

I have no issues with the focus on graphics even though I sim 99.9% of my games out, rarely watching any. I have no issues with the focus on Perfect Team even though I have zero interest in it aside from logging in occasionally when I bored and opening the free packs I have accumulated points for just to see the names of the historical players I pull before going back to my online league or solo project.

I play as a GM only, or more precisely most often as the commissioner or overseer of my baseball world letting things evolve. There are things that annoy me of course, but also workarounds I have devised to get the results I want to the point that I am very, very happy with OOTP23, just as I was with virtually every version prior.

But it is disappointing what the game could have been (or I suppose could still become) if the many introduced but forgotten features were actually followed up on.

Things like

• Associations
• Feeder Leagues
• the whole player and staff morale and interaction
• the hiring process for managers and staff
• the fact that the draft has become unrealistic with far too few busts
• and I am sure there are others I am not thinking of off the top of my head

If the developers would spend just a little time adding to those many features that were introduced but then quickly abandon it would be far better than pretty much any new feature in my books. But the bottom line for me is even if they never improve anything I focus on in the game it will still be far and away the best sports sim for my uses bar none.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

No it all Syd, Do people actually believe the poop you sling?

My statement was "Colonel if you want to venture into other games check out Legend Bowl."

Nope never compared it to ootp. And you are calling a game you never played 3rd rate abd janky. Get over yourself bud. Aren't you the one akways talking about evidence. You got none cause you dont own it.

Did anyone ask if you like arcade games?

It's about letting Colonel know there are a ton of other games out there that do management if your aren't limited to sports or MLB.

If I wanted to compare a game to ootp I would just bring up FM. Nice try ootp

And here it is.....derail the whole thread to push other companies game. Are you seriously pushing Legend Bowl as management game? It is clearly an arcade game that just added the "management" aspect.

We all know you have some axe to grind.....why do you keep coming back if you have such an issue with OOTP? It's the same thing will all your posts. Please just go away.

Now can we please lock this thread.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

TBH I thought the 3D animation stuff was just going to be a sidelight as well but then I started playing with it and to me at least it's an integral part of the game. If anything I want to see more play types animated - there are still some rare plays, like the batter getting on base but a runner being called out because he was hit by a batted ball, that don't have animations (oh yeah, and balks - even the PBP is like "I don't know what just happened"). Having the the animations in place make this game enjoyable to just watch and IMO makes it fun and immersive on the level of Microleague Baseball or Earl Weaver rather than Strat-O-Matic or APBA back in the day.

If anything I would love to see a lot more movement on this front - different body types (tall players, short players, FAT GUYS) (SERIOUSLY GIVE ME CC SABATHIA NOW), players wearing their uniforms differently (love to see guys wearing stirrups vs the modern long pants, for instance), different batting stances and pitching windups (would also love if a closed stance, for example, came with some wrinkles in how it makes the player play the way pitching angles affect, for example, the curve). Oh right, and uniform numbers! But, like, even the new uniforms dealing better with 3D textures is kind of huge, as is, yes, the introduction of pants. When you play out the games like I do, it's off-putting and immersion-breaking to see guys wearing inaccurate uniforms and I'm glad that got addressed.

I think the big thing there is that just because this isn't a big add for *you* doesn't mean it's not a big add to *the game*. If the game is going a different direction than you want it to go, sure, that's a beef to have. It's just plain not accurate to call the huge, huge changes over the last 3 years or so as tiny/incremental improvements just because the big feature adds aren't something you use (for that matter, the biggest change from 22 to 23 was that they overhauled the game engine, which is exactly one of those things that people complain about needing to do every single year but then when it's done it's basically ignored because the results aren't sexy enough).

I am actually good with the game engine improvements and think they are great. Now I wish they would do the same for other aspects of the game such as financial, transactions etc...the draft isn't realistic anymore, as there aren't nearly enough busts in the first round or so. The problem I think though, is there is no indication what is on the agenda. This never used to really be the case.