When should I be promoting INT Complex Players?

[andyhdz]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Except that the International complex and the DSL both do exist IRL so I'd prefer OOTP continue to reflect that as closely as possible.

Ok but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the progression of intl ammy players to start at intl complexes , then DSL, and then stateside rookie leagues? I don't think players go backwards and even though technically DSL and stateside complexes are equal the goal is to get them ready for stateside play. Again correct me if I'm wrong.

[fcdankmemes]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I refer to it as the 'Player Regression' report as opposed to the 'Player Development' Report because it is mostly negative to the point where it can get depressing at times. Always has been and seems to be getting worse.
Considering how many guys play pro ball and how many make it to the show, it's probably realistic I guess, but it's not exactly the ray of sunshine you need to light up your day.
It's impossible to judge if this is what you're experiencing or if something is wrong.
But if some key people in your system are trending toward their projections or a little better, and you get a surprise or two, you're probably just experiencing the norm.

Can’t say I’ve ever looked at one of those reports and thought ‘nice’ in my life haha it’s always depressing

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I’m a newbie still at the promotion of DSL players, just learning (the hard way) that it’s a one-way street. Another reason to be cautious about DSL performance is that it’s a big league, lots of teams, lots of teenagers with way different ability and performance. So your stud hitter may have mashed against a few less talented pitchers, meaning performance will even out, and maybe not ready for promotion. Or your stud pitcher may have been mowing down sub-par hitters on weak teams. So I need a larger sample size, and look for guys with solid stats who maybe are a year or two older than the league average, seem to be filled out, nothing more to prove. Remember IRL you may well be taking a teenager who has never been to the States away from his family and girlfriend and coach, which are subjective reasons why promotion is a slow process, and why rushing a kid can backfire. I still question in my mind whether all this investment and training of international players for so many years is worth it, when so few make it to MLB. And then you see that Miguel Cabrera or Mariano Rivera type guy, and you understand why.

Well, yes I’d consider those factors also if OOTP simulated/replicated them, but it doesn’t, so it’s a non-factor.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by andyhdz

Ok but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the progression of intl ammy players to start at intl complexes , then DSL, and then stateside rookie leagues? I don't think players go backwards and even though technically DSL and stateside complexes are equal the goal is to get them ready for stateside play. Again correct me if I'm wrong.

Yessir. That's 100% correct.
Nothing in my post(s) should contradict that and, if something did, it was inadvertent or misunderstood.

[Pdubya64]

This discussion got me wondering- do we only see the parameter "Competition Level" (lower left corner) on a player in the draft pool? I know I refer to it when trying to whittle down comparing a handful of prospects.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Int complex players will always develop more in Rookie leagues even at 16. The reason why you might not want to do it is contract related.

They will hite Rule 5 and minor league free agency a lot quicker. Complex their is no service time.

If you want the best of both worlds you can add 1 of the MLB tournaments from wizard and just select int complex players only. So int complex guys can gain stats they still don't get service time cause it's a tournament not a league.

Quickest way to develop is playing rookie ball. It's just not safe. Injuries and financial reasons. Plus they can get worst. Int complex they are pretty frozen in time just getting older. Think they can be hit with random talent changes still and normal growth like fielding arm range etc. But since they don't play they aren't developing from real playing time and competition.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by fcdankmemes

Gotcha, gotcha. Thanks for the tips.
Also, while we’re all still here, the vast majority of my player development emails have been mostly negative. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ve dumped a ton of money into it, have good coaches, am I just getting unlucky? Or do I need to do something differently?

I'd say Mr. Stieb pretty much answered your question.

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I refer to it as the 'Player Regression' report as opposed to the 'Player Development' Report because it is mostly negative to the point where it can get depressing at times. Always has been and seems to be getting worse.
Considering how many guys play pro ball and how many make it to the show, it's probably realistic I guess, but it's not exactly the ray of sunshine you need to light up your day.
It's impossible to judge if this is what you're experiencing or if something is wrong.
But if some key people in your system are trending toward their projections or a little better, and you get a surprise or two, you're probably just experiencing the norm.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Perhaps with the 3 year service limits, older players at these levels will naturally get weeded out, but when you start a new MLB save, there are some pretty old players there for these levels.

Service limits seem to work ok for this. I set it at 3 which really means 4 years. So a 16 y/o must be out by 20. Although an 18 y/o can last to 22, I don't think I have ever had a player make it to 22 in the DSL. Not sure what the AI is doing. I think it depends on if they 1 or 2 DSL teams. I would guess a lot more younger guys get promoted when you have 2 teams.

I want until 18 maybe 17 to promote the real prospects because it starts the pro years clock. I am not sure if a 16 y/o would do bad in the DSL but they develop in the complex and it isn't AA by 22 or bust if you have the minor league service times set like real life. You can keep them in A ball 6 years giving them plenty of time to develop.

Roster filler 20/20 players I don't really care about the age. They get replaced fast.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Service limits seem to work ok for this. I set it at 3 which really means 4 years. So a 16 y/o must be out by 20. Although an 18 y/o can last to 22, I don't think I have ever had a player make it to 22 in the DSL. Not sure what the AI is doing. I think it depends on if they 1 or 2 DSL teams. I would guess a lot more younger guys get promoted when you have 2 teams.

I want until 18 maybe 17 to promote the real prospects because it starts the pro years clock. I am not sure if a 16 y/o would do bad in the DSL but they develop in the complex and it isn't AA by 22 or bust if you have the minor league service times set like real life. You can keep them in A ball 6 years giving them plenty of time to develop.

Roster filler 20/20 players I don't really care about the age. They get replaced fast.

Right 3 years means no more than four, and it’s good to know that’s the case. As I look around the actual DSL rosters, I do see a few 22 year-olds sprinkled in there. I assume they likely signed around 18 (as you said) and they are also usually pitchers.

From what I can tell by what you’re saying though, it sounds like the DSL will work well with service limits enabled…which is really something I think they (OOTPD) should consider making default. I have found all of the actual MiLB roster rules to work pretty well. They seem scared it’s going to adversely affect the AI somehow, but I contend it actually helps keep rosters looking realistic.

[UltimateAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Sweed

You see the "ratings relative to MLB" tab? Change that to whatever your lowest rookie league is and see how your scout thinks they would fare in that league. Some will claim this is "gamey" but I don't see why? You are currently looking at your scouting departments projection on how it thinks your player will end up when fully developed. No reason that scouting department can't give an opinion on how a player would do at other levels. Hell, that's part of their job. Once you get that opinion then it will be up to you to decide if that projection means they are good enough to move up or not.

Just be sure. This is the most unsure time as there are no stats go go by. Once moved up they can't be moved back

I don't think the game will do it for you if you have yourself set to do MiLB promotions and demotions unless, they reach the max IC age of 20.

Legit "mind blown" moment, I dont know how I never thought of this!

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Pdubya64

This discussion got me wondering- do we only see the parameter "Competition Level" (lower left corner) on a player in the draft pool? I know I refer to it when trying to whittle down comparing a handful of prospects.

Yes, that only exists for draft eligible players.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Right 3 years means no more than four, and it’s good to know that’s the case. As I look around the actual DSL rosters, I do see a few 22 year-olds sprinkled in there. I assume they likely signed around 18 (as you said) and they are also usually pitchers.

From what I can tell by what you’re saying though, it sounds like the DSL will work well with service limits enabled…which is really something I think they (OOTPD) should consider making default. I have found all of the actual MiLB roster rules to work pretty well. They seem scared it’s going to adversely affect the AI somehow, but I contend it actually helps keep rosters looking realistic.

I've always just used service time limits, but in my latest save I put an age limit of 21 on the DSL so that the AI is forced to promote or weed those guys out for the first season.
TBH, my concern is the domestic complex league. The 4 year max (3 in OOTP) is perfect for high school draftees but if 23 year old college draftees end ip there, they could be idling there through their age 26 season without an age limit. Not good.

[MikeS369]

How do you get the "Ratings relative to" button to show? I don't have that option in my game.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Right 3 years means no more than four, and it’s good to know that’s the case. As I look around the actual DSL rosters, I do see a few 22 year-olds sprinkled in there. I assume they likely signed around 18 (as you said) and they are also usually pitchers.

From what I can tell by what you’re saying though, it sounds like the DSL will work well with service limits enabled…which is really something I think they (OOTPD) should consider making default. I have found all of the actual MiLB roster rules to work pretty well. They seem scared it’s going to adversely affect the AI somehow, but I contend it actually helps keep rosters looking realistic.

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I've always just used service time limits, but in my latest save I put an age limit of 21 on the DSL so that the AI is forced to promote or weed those guys out for the first season.
TBH, my concern is the domestic complex league. The 4 year max (3 in OOTP) is perfect for high school draftees but if 23 year old college draftees end ip there, they could be idling there through their age 26 season without an age limit. Not good.

I think it makes sense to use both age and service time limits from high A to the DSL. Even though there are no age limits in real life, most teams work as if there is one.

For example, if you go to the low-A roster data for the 2021 minor league teams in baseball reference and sort by PAs or IPs, you will find that over-24 players are very rare and get little playing time. For the most part, teams only use older guys for mop-up roles in the pen (pitchers of 24 or older usually rack up the Games Finished). There are some dumb teams like the Rockies who value minor league victories and have many old players at every level, but preventing that from happening in game is a feature, not a bug, of setting age limits, in my opinion.

Since OOTP is great but not perfect, we need to choose between two imperfect worlds:

1) Have service time and age limits to prevent players from having an unrealistic amount of playing time at levels for which they are too old, but at the cost of losing the possibility of having org guys get marginal roles like they do in real life

2) Have service time limits only so that college seniors can play marginal org guy roles for longer, like they do in real life, but at the cost of having too many college seniors dominating at levels for which they are too old.

To me, this one is a no-brainer, but I do appreciate that many people here have a stronger preference for real rules than I do.

[Dave Stieb II]

I'm not averse to setting age limits through High A, along with service time limits, but I'd want them to be a little more lenient than what some players use. (That's just an assumption on my part from reading different threads over the years)
What age restrictions do you use?

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by MikeS369

How do you get the "Ratings relative to" button to show? I don't have that option in my game.

I'd like to help but I have no idea why you wouldn't have that option.
Sorry.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by MikeS369

How do you get the "Ratings relative to" button to show? I don't have that option in my game.

Here it is. This is current 20 relative to MLB but 45 relative to DSL. His potential jumps from 65 to 80 when compared to DSL as well.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by andyhdz

Ok but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the progression of intl ammy players to start at intl complexes , then DSL, and then stateside rookie leagues? I don't think players go backwards and even though technically DSL and stateside complexes are equal the goal is to get them ready for stateside play. Again correct me if I'm wrong.

By the MLB rules a player can't go back to an international reserve roster once they are on the MLB reserve roster. They count against the 180 limit when they come to FSL or AZL. They can't go back to an international limit and free up a spot.

The 180 limit isn't in the game but I think it came in last season to limit some of the rookie league teams. Teams can't have more than 180 players in the organization but they can reserve 35 for each DSL team.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I'm not averse to setting age limits through High A, along with service time limits, but I'd want them to be a little more lenient than what some players use. (That's just an assumption on my part from reading different threads over the years)
What age restrictions do you use?

Under a standard MLB game, I would use 25 for high A, 24 for low A, 23 for the complex, and 22 for the DSL.
Even the most marginal and late-developing 40-man roster players followed a path through the minors that did not violate those age limits, so it is hard to argue more leniency is needed.

My world has an advanced rookie level and a 30-round draft, so it is A+ at 25, A- at 24, R+ at 23, R at 22, and DSL at 22.

The limits can be raised by one year, but I find that makes it difficult for younger prospects to progress

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

By the MLB rules a player can't go back to an international reserve roster once they are on the MLB reserve roster. They count against the 180 limit when they come to FSL or AZL. They can't go back to an international limit and free up a spot.

The 180 limit isn't in the game but I think it came in last season to limit some of the rookie league teams. Teams can't have more than 180 players in the organization but they can reserve 35 for each DSL team.

The 180 player limit applies only to stateside minor league teams. The DSL is exempt…which kind of has me scratching my head. Most organizations have cut down to one complex team due to this rule, which makes me wonder why the rule isn’t just 160 players as opposed to 180. They might as well just cap the complex league teams at 44 players and call it a day. That’s already a lot of inactive players just sitting around…with 180 players and only one complex team, you have a limit of 64 players essentially. That’s too many players and not enough open roster spots. I know you can mix and match the players around, but playing time will be an issue for a lot of prospects.