Justification For 2-Strike Bunting?

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Still not making the point you think you’re making…

I didn't think I was making a point. I thought I was an old man rattling off trivia from his childhood that I still find amusing. That was one wacky season, and it led to the lowering of the pitching mound because Ray Oyler hitting .135 and Bob Gibson having an ERA of 1.12 were seen as two sides of the same coin. The next season, with the lower mound, MLB runs per game per team went up from 3.4 to 4.1. And Oyler, with the Seattle Pilots, skied to a .165 BA and a .526 OPS.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

someone might be getting a bit beat up intellectually here (and hey, I don't mean to suggest that this is how that person feels- just my perception),

If you mean me, nah, I just think Syd thought I was making an argument when I was just spouting random entertaining statistics. That's what baseball fans do, right?

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

If you mean me, nah, I just think Syd thought I was making an argument when I was just spouting random entertaining statistics. That's what baseball fans do, right?

Yes, understood, and that is pretty much what I thought.
Mostly I was speaking generally but in this case I was admittedly responding to responses to what you posted.

And the more I think about it I also realize that I am a bit out of sorts at the moment and probably being overly sensitive.

So for everyone I offer sincere apologies if I offended in any way.

[oldfatbaldguy]

It's all good as far as I'm concerned. None of this bothered me. If I tried to make any point at all in this thread, it was in my first comment about going ahead and letting the pitcher keep trying to bunt with two strikes because he's probably going to strike out either way. And a couple of people observed correctly that there are worse results than a strikeout that are more likely if he swings away.

My current fictional team has a very interesting tactical quirk in that my primary closer is a decent hitter. Not better than any of my position players, but so much better than a typical pitcher that I get into spots where I'm thinking "that's not really my last pinch hitter because I could use del Rio, but if del Rio pinch hits before I'm ready to put him in to pitch I lose him." And in one gloriously bizarro sequence, del Rio pinch hit and then stayed in the game to close.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

My current fictional team has a very interesting tactical quirk in that my primary closer is a decent hitter. Not better than any of my position players, but so much better than a typical pitcher that I get into spots where I'm thinking "that's not really my last pinch hitter because I could use del Rio, but if del Rio pinch hits before I'm ready to put him in to pitch I lose him." And in one gloriously bizarro sequence, del Rio pinch hit and then stayed in the game to close.

Yes, and this thread also made me think that while I am not at all bothered by the idea of most pitchers trying to bunt still with two-strikes on them, I do sometimes find it frustrating when on my fictional team one of my best hitters, who is a 2-way player and sometimes comes in out of the bullpen, will bunt at times when I would rather he swing away simply because the AI is reading him as a pitcher for that particular at-bat. (I play out all of my games, but only manage substitutions.)
On the other hand, there are times when I assume one of my pitchers is going to bunt in a situation and instead they swing away and line a double down the left-field line or something unexpected like that. So, it's never going to be perfect- nothing in life is. But most of the time it is pretty darn fun and wonderful, isn't it?!

[Pelican]

[

But here's the thing- and I say this as respectfully and kindly as I can and certainly don't mean to single you or anyone else out on this count (truth be told, you are one of the people here I probably most consistently agree with)- in my experience this community/ these forums can veer into some intellectual bullying/big brains on display behavior. There are many smart people here, I have no doubt. Although there are some people here who I consistently disagree with (and whose world views I suspect are radically different than my own) I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't pretty darn smart/knowledgeable would spend much time trying to play a game like OOTP. So intelligence that is at least above average is what I consider the baseline for this community.
But my nature is that on occasions where it feels to me like someone might be getting a bit beat up intellectually here (and hey, I don't mean to suggest that this is how that person feels- just my perception), I will likely at times rush in to provide some support and a bit of counter-action.[/QUOTE]

Well put

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Pelican

[

But here's the thing- and I say this as respectfully and kindly as I can and certainly don't mean to single you or anyone else out on this count (truth be told, you are one of the people here I probably most consistently agree with)- in my experience this community/ these forums can veer into some intellectual bullying/big brains on display behavior. There are many smart people here, I have no doubt. Although there are some people here who I consistently disagree with (and whose world views I suspect are radically different than my own) I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't pretty darn smart/knowledgeable would spend much time trying to play a game like OOTP. So intelligence that is at least above average is what I consider the baseline for this community.
But my nature is that on occasions where it feels to me like someone might be getting a bit beat up intellectually here (and hey, I don't mean to suggest that this is how that person feels- just my perception), I will likely at times rush in to provide some support and a bit of counter-action.

Well put[/QUOTE]


Well, maybe, and I appreciate you saying so, but I also realize that I'm in a bit of mood today and likely should have just bit my tongue.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Another thing that happens on a forum like this is that people interpret the tone of a comment in different ways, which doesn't happen as much if you're all sitting around a table with a pitcher of beer and you can see who's smiling. Maybe I shoulda used an emoji.

I think we can probably safely assume that regardless of age, all the children playing OOTP are above average. (That's a Lake Wobegon joke.)

[Syd Thrift]

I, admittedly, have a very hard time seeing something that's just, like, wrong in my eyes and letting it go. It's a fault I recognize, I am constantly at work on it, and believe it or not I'm better than I used to be.

[oldfatbaldguy]

This is all Ray Oyler's fault.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

Yes, and this thread also made me think that while I am not at all bothered by the idea of most pitchers trying to bunt still with two-strikes on them, I do sometimes find it frustrating when on my fictional team one of my best hitters, who is a 2-way player and sometimes comes in out of the bullpen, will bunt at times when I would rather he swing away simply because the AI is reading him as a pitcher for that particular at-bat. (I play out all of my games, but only manage substitutions.)
On the other hand, there are times when I assume one of my pitchers is going to bunt in a situation and instead they swing away and line a double down the left-field line or something unexpected like that. So, it's never going to be perfect- nothing in life is. But most of the time it is pretty darn fun and wonderful, isn't it?!

IME - and maybe this will help you - if you're playing the way you're playing (I play this way as well) and you substitute a pinch-hitter for the pitcher, the strategy AI will not reset unless you click out to another screen and click back in. I realize that clicking on the box score screen and then clicking back into the game every time I bring in a pinch-hitter sounds a little bit like I'm a bird in a Skinner box but a. I think this is sort of an edge case and b. I can make a case for why the game might operate this way (the game AI, I'm guessing, makes all of its decisions as to what to do in a given at-bat at the same time, so if it sees a pitcher is up and doesn't have the option to pinch-hit, it will go "bunt" until it "realizes" that the pitcher is not in the game anymore).

I haven't TBH really used 2-way players a lot (although I forgot to unclick that option in the 1940s-1970 fictional save I'm running so they existed before I took over the league) but I will *guess* that this, not the fact that the AI is confused about the 2-way player in question, is your issue.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

This is all Ray Oyler's fault.

Sadly, he died of a heart attack in 1981 so we can't just TP his house like good-thinking Americans should. Maybe his wife still lives in the area.

Apropos to absolutely nothing: he apparently managed a bowling alley in Bellevue, WA after he retired. I grew up in Bellevue and while I was 7 years old when he died I think it's around 50/50 whether I ever bowled at that alley. There are essentially two places it could have been: a place in downtown that is now a Barnes and Noble (that I never bowled at; there used to be a movie theater next door I went to a few times though) and a place a few blocks away from the T-Mobile corporate headquarters that I went to many, many times.

I'm sure this is all very, very exciting to everyone. My point is, if it was Sun Villa Lanes, I think we can get back at Ray Oyler by TPing that particular location instead of bothering his elderly wife, and frankly I think that whoever proposed that particular idea should be insta-banned from this message boards.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

IME - and maybe this will help you - if you're playing the way you're playing (I play this way as well) and you substitute a pinch-hitter for the pitcher, the strategy AI will not reset unless you click out to another screen and click back in. I realize that clicking on the box score screen and then clicking back into the game every time I bring in a pinch-hitter sounds a little bit like I'm a bird in a Skinner box but a. I think this is sort of an edge case and b. I can make a case for why the game might operate this way (the game AI, I'm guessing, makes all of its decisions as to what to do in a given at-bat at the same time, so if it sees a pitcher is up and doesn't have the option to pinch-hit, it will go "bunt" until it "realizes" that the pitcher is not in the game anymore).

I haven't TBH really used 2-way players a lot (although I forgot to unclick that option in the 1940s-1970 fictional save I'm running so they existed before I took over the league) but I will *guess* that this, not the fact that the AI is confused about the 2-way player in question, is your issue.

I think this usually happens to me when I have brought in the player in question to pitch first and then he comes to the plate subsequently. Since he is a very good hitter, and an okay first baseman, and a usually not very good reliever, when he does pitch it is often in mop-up or emergency situations. He does have very good stamina so he can give me multiple innings. And because he is such a good hitter there is almost never a reason for me to pull him for a pinch-hitter.
So in the case I am thinking of (which I may not have described very well, either earlier or now) he really is a pitcher hitting but he's so not your typical hitting pitcher. (If that makes any sense. )

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I, admittedly, have a very hard time seeing something that's just, like, wrong in my eyes and letting it go. It's a fault I recognize, I am constantly at work on it, and believe it or not I'm better than I used to be.

Me too.

[Baby Ruth]

Not only did I get some good reasoning behind bunting with 2 strikes, but I also learned a lot more than I anticipated (as usual).

Regarding the bowling lane story, I always think it's cool to hear about post-baseball life stories of guys that are no longer in the game, especially those that may have finished their careers pre-1980 or maybe even have finished their life by then. If I was immortal I would look up every dead ball player to see what I could about whatever became of them.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

Since he is a very good hitter, and an okay first baseman, and a usually not very good reliever,

You got a chance to run the old ploy of bringing in a lefty to pitch to a lefty, then moving him to first base until there's another lefty, then moving him back to the mound.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

You got a chance to run the old ploy of bringing in a lefty to pitch to a lefty, then moving him to first base until there's another lefty, then moving him back to the mound.

I know the Cardinals did this back in the 80s with Todd Worrell, only they put him in the outfield.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

You got a chance to run the old ploy of bringing in a lefty to pitch to a lefty, then moving him to first base until there's another lefty, then moving him back to the mound.

I had not thought of this.
It might be a bit too tricky for me, but it is a fun idea.
(Though I should probably add that he is a right-handed relief pitcher. And not that this is remotely relevant to the current conversation- but hey, that ship sailed awhile ago, right?- but he is also the team Captain, so all kinds of valuable in spite of his mostly mediocre pitching.)

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Sadly, he died of a heart attack in 1981

Tom Matchick died yesterday (1/4/22). We're losing the Tigers of my childhood rapidly now.

[Pelican]

I couldn’t resist telling one retired ballplayer story. So indulge me. When I was around forty, some friends persuaded me to abandon beer league softball (a poor match for my lack of power and defensive skills) in favor of “modified-pitch” baseball. In our league a teammate would pitch to you. You had three pitches to hit a fair ball. So, no strikeouts or walks, lots of action. We played seven-inning doubleheaders in about ninety minutes. I had never played hardball with metal bats. Totally cool hitting, lots more distance, but totally uncool in the outfield. Anyway, the County ran the league, and the coordinator was - wait for it - former major leaguer Dave May. He would sit behind the plate in the metal bleachers and watch the gams, and provide hilarious commentary. And you know we all played a bit harder, knowing a former major leaguer was watching. As if he cared about us performing! One of my first games, I came in on a sinking line drive to CF, forgetting that off the metal bat it would not sink as fast. I somehow ended up making a basket catch off my chest. Dave was genuinely concerned that I had hurt myself. He made a remark about hitting .400 if he had used metal bats.