B’bye, Buster - Page 2

kq76 · 11-08-2021, 03:57 AM

Comparing catchers to outfielders is crazy. You might as well compare them to pitchers.

I think you could compare corner outfielders with each other and maybe even to 1B. You could also compare SS to 2B. You could even stretch it and compare all batters, except catchers, to one another and most wouldn't call you on it. But catchers? No way.

As much as I liked Buster, he belongs in the Giants' Hall, but not MLB's. Unless we want to put a few other catchers in before him. I'm sure he would have made it, had he: 1) not gotten injured so bad, and 2) played longer. He's the Giants' Thurman Munson, except he gets to live the rest of his life.

As for Jim Edmonds, he's 14th in WAR all-time among players who were primarily CFs. Carlos Beltran is 7th. Do we think he's getting in eventually? I think so, probably. Was he ever accused of taking 'roids? I forget. Kenny Lofton, surprisingly, was 7th (and is now a very close 8th) and he got dropped in his first year in 2013! So are we saying there should only be 6 CFs in the 150 year history of MLB to be in the hall of fame? Yes, I know, there are others, but they're all below Carlos and Kenny.

Mauer, btw, is 10th all-time among catchers and he's the highest not in the Hall. He's a tough one to judge though because he played half his career at C and the other half as a 1B/DH.

mytreds · 11-14-2021, 09:02 PM

I’m a lifelong Giants fan. And as good as he was for the G Men, he’s not a HoFer. It’s no surprise that’s he’s leaving baseball, given the strenuous position of playing catcher and the fact that CA and SF are rapidly going downhill, I’d take my millions and retire to my ranch to raise my kids as well.

ojoe · 11-14-2021, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Posey had a career .831 OPS, with 1500 hits, while Edmonds had a career .903 OPS (YES, CAREER OPS), with 1949 hits, eight Gold Gloves, and 330 more total bases, and, to top it all off, Edmonds had an additional 450 walks.

Edmonds was a CF during the steroid era - and I don't think that he took PEDs, but numbers were up across the board. Posey was a catcher who played his whole career in a pitcher's park. So I don't know that Edmonds is the best direct comparison here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Edmonds gets on base 900 more times than Posey, and no one in their right mind would suggest that Edmonds wasn't a HUGELY better defensive player, and Edmonds isn't seriously considered a HoF'er.

I think a lot of people would dispute that Edmonds was a much better defensive player. According to baseball-reference, Edmonds was worth 75 runs defensively over his career, which is good for 17th all-time among CFs. Posey was worth 76 runs defensively (in 5,400 fewer innings), which is good for 8th all-time among catchers. Edmonds was more spectacular because you can be in CF, but it's not crazy to think Posey was the better defender.

dsvitak · 11-16-2021, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ojoe

Edmonds was a CF during the steroid era - and I don't think that he took PEDs, but numbers were up across the board. Posey was a catcher who played his whole career in a pitcher's park. So I don't know that Edmonds is the best direct comparison here.

I think a lot of people would dispute that Edmonds was a much better defensive player. According to baseball-reference, Edmonds was worth 75 runs defensively over his career, which is good for 17th all-time among CFs. Posey was worth 76 runs defensively (in 5,400 fewer innings), which is good for 8th all-time among catchers. Edmonds was more spectacular because you can be in CF, but it's not crazy to think Posey was the better defender.

Edmonds had 14649 innings as a CF, Posey had 9291 innings as a Catcher. How you manage to convince yourself that by playing 5400 innings LESS is a good thing is well beyond me.

Robin Young, Pete Rose, Harold Baines, and many other players played for a LONG time, and collected many, many counting stats. Posey had 1063 games as a catcher. There are 95 other catchers with more games played. Like Mauer, he just wasn't good enough, long enough.

monkeyman576 · 11-16-2021, 11:03 AM

Quantity is nice but quality is good too in certain circumstances. It's hard for me to believe that only Mauer and Molina are the only hall worthy Catchers of this era.

dsvitak · 11-17-2021, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

Quantity is nice but quality is good too in certain circumstances. It's hard for me to believe that only Mauer and Molina are the only hall worthy Catchers of this era.

I can make a decent case for Jason Kendall.

11-08-2021, 03:57 AM	#21
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,799	Comparing catchers to outfielders is crazy. You might as well compare them to pitchers. I think you could compare corner outfielders with each other and maybe even to 1B. You could also compare SS to 2B. You could even stretch it and compare all batters, except catchers, to one another and most wouldn't call you on it. But catchers? No way. As much as I liked Buster, he belongs in the Giants' Hall, but not MLB's. Unless we want to put a few other catchers in before him. I'm sure he would have made it, had he: 1) not gotten injured so bad, and 2) played longer. He's the Giants' Thurman Munson, except he gets to live the rest of his life. As for Jim Edmonds, he's 14th in WAR all-time among players who were primarily CFs. Carlos Beltran is 7th. Do we think he's getting in eventually? I think so, probably. Was he ever accused of taking 'roids? I forget. Kenny Lofton, surprisingly, was 7th (and is now a very close 8th) and he got dropped in his first year in 2013! So are we saying there should only be 6 CFs in the 150 year history of MLB to be in the hall of fame? Yes, I know, there are others, but they're all below Carlos and Kenny. Mauer, btw, is 10th all-time among catchers and he's the highest not in the Hall. He's a tough one to judge though because he played half his career at C and the other half as a 1B/DH. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) Last edited by kq76; 11-08-2021 at 04:06 AM.

11-14-2021, 09:02 PM	#22
mytreds All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 1,182	I’m a lifelong Giants fan. And as good as he was for the G Men, he’s not a HoFer. It’s no surprise that’s he’s leaving baseball, given the strenuous position of playing catcher and the fact that CA and SF are rapidly going downhill, I’d take my millions and retire to my ranch to raise my kids as well. __________________ “Baseball isn’t statistics; it’s Joe DiMaggio rounding second.” “Once, centuries ago, it was the beloved national pastime of the Americas, Wesley. Abandoned by a society that prized fast food and faster games. Lost to impatience.” “ The term ‘WAR’ should be replaced by ‘WAG’. WAR isn’t an actual measurement; it’s just a wild-ass guess” -Bill James RIP National League 1876-2022 Floreat semper vel invita morte. I make custom ballparks.

11-16-2021, 11:03 AM	#25
monkeyman576 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,692	Quantity is nice but quality is good too in certain circumstances. It's hard for me to believe that only Mauer and Molina are the only hall worthy Catchers of this era.