Hall of Fame or no?

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Gotta wonder, with all the steroid era guys that are becoming eligible, the Hall might instead take a second look at "borderline" HOF guys who played in the 70's-80's like Rice, the Evanses, Dale Murphy, etc. Gotta put SOMEBODY in once in a while, right?

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

Gotta wonder, with all the steroid era guys that are becoming eligible, the Hall might instead take a second look at "borderline" HOF guys who played in the 70's-80's like Rice, the Evanses, Dale Murphy, etc. Gotta put SOMEBODY in once in a while, right?

I agree 100%. I think there are players that had zero chance of gaining induction 10 years ago that will be getting in because of the changed landscape.

I think players from the 80s were looked down upon, historically, as not being as good as players 20-40 years prior. I think there has been a change in that perception that will affect future votes, and Veterans Selections.

I do think Sabermetrics is influencing things more than ever before, but I also think that the Steroid era has tempered the swing to decisions being more numbers based. The Steroid era has forced those with decision making authority to make decisions on subjective criteria, even for those who think it is ideal to use numbers, only. Any numeric adjustment from an era when some used and some didn't and how that affects performance vs league averages for those that didn't use will be largely subjective, even if translated into a numeric equation.

I think Dale Murphy will get in, in no small part due to the Steroid era, but he is not on the ballot and will have to wait for Veterans Committee eligibility.

Before that happens, and it could happen this year, the Veterans Committee will be casting votes for "Golden Age" players, which includes another back-to-back MVP winner, Roger Maris.

I cannot think of any player whose stock has risen more in the last 10 years than Maris. If the writers were "making a statement" by electing no one in 2013, the Vet Committee would be making an even stronger statement by electing Maris.

10, 20, 30 years ago, I would have said Maris would never be inducted, and his career didn't warrant it. Now I think he can be elected, and may very well be elected due to current climate re PEDs and the integrity of records (which was something that was unjustly held against him in his lifetime).

I am not saying that I support a Maris induction, but I am not opposed. This is a shift in my opinion from not even 10 years ago.

If the Veterans Committee wants to make a statement, then it is through Maris that it will best be made.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

Gotta wonder, with all the steroid era guys that are becoming eligible, the Hall might instead take a second look at "borderline" HOF guys who played in the 70's-80's like Rice, the Evanses, Dale Murphy, etc. Gotta put SOMEBODY in once in a while, right?

Um, Rice was elected to the HOF. I don't think they're going to take a second look at him.

And no, they don't have to put in people just for the sake of putting them in. Part of my complaint about the HOF is that they seem to have started doing that, where they are putting in the best of whoever happens to be on the ballot that year regardless of merit, even if those players are not really HOF-worthy relative to the understood standards of the institution. A new low will be reached soon with Jack Morris, and I'm already annoyed with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson going in. I think the last two were partly a reaction to the recent era, which just so happened to be aided, abetted, and conveniently ignored by the same writers who cast ballots to begin with.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

Um, Rice was elected to the HOF. I don't think they're going to take a second look at him.

And no, they don't have to put in people just for the sake of putting them in. Part of my complaint about the HOF is that they seem to have started doing that, where they are putting in the best of whoever happens to be on the ballot that year regardless of merit, even if those players are not really HOF-worthy relative to the understood standards of the institution. A new low will be reached soon with Jack Morris, and I'm already annoyed with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson going in. I think the last two were partly a reaction to the recent era, which just so happened to be aided, abetted, and conveniently ignored by the same writers who cast ballots to begin with.

Yeah, I know...I meant players LIKE Rice. Similar stats and all. Should have made that a bit more clear.

But you know the HOF...if nobody goes in for more than a year or two, people wonder what the hell's up. I think Murphy will get in just on niceness alone eventually (as the anti-roid era/prima donna guy), not sure about the others you mentioned. Maybe Dawson.

Don Mattingly, maybe? Short term of dominance, like Maris, but the Hall does love Yankees.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

Yeah, I know...I meant players LIKE Rice. Similar stats and all. Should have made that a bit more clear.

But you know the HOF...if nobody goes in for more than a year or two, people wonder what the hell's up. I think Murphy will get in just on niceness alone eventually (as the anti-roid era/prima donna guy), not sure about the others you mentioned. Maybe Dawson.

Don Mattingly, maybe? Short term of dominance, like Maris, but the Hall does love Yankees.

If Don Mattingly gets into the HOF without a ticket, I'm going to become violent. That has nothing to do with his being a Yankee, it has to do with him being a completely obscene case for the HOF as a 1B. Maybe Bernie Williams can sneak Don in during his induction ceremony, but Mattingly? NFW.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

If Don Mattingly gets into the HOF without a ticket, I'm going to become violent. That has nothing to do with his being a Yankee, it has to do with him being a completely obscene case for the HOF as a 1B. Maybe Bernie Williams can sneak Don in during his induction ceremony, but Mattingly? NFW.

Bernie Williams in the HoF? Oh boy ...

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

If Don Mattingly gets into the HOF without a ticket, I'm going to become violent. That has nothing to do with his being a Yankee, it has to do with him being a completely obscene case for the HOF as a 1B. Maybe Bernie Williams can sneak Don in during his induction ceremony, but Mattingly? NFW.

You know people WANT to put Mattingly in. I think a good (not necessarily great) run as a manager will be enough.

3 WS and/or MOY Awards will be his ticket.

Heck, if Buddy Biancalana were to manage a team to a Championship when he is stuck with Carl Crawford as his starting LFer, that might be enough for HIM to get in.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Bernie Williams in the HoF? Oh boy ...

Compared to Don Mattingly, he'd be a pretty solid choice. Combine being a top-20 CFer of all time offensively with 5 All-Star appearances, 4 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, and 4 World Series rings, and there's a case to be made. I'm a "smaller HOF" guy, so I wouldn't vote for him, but he wouldn't be in the Jack Morris/Don Mattingly range where my blood would boil.

Mattingly, on the other hand, is 34th all time among 1B (min 1000 games at the position) in OPS+, 48th all time in HR, 51st in games played, 31st in hits, and so on...he's not in the top echelon of his position by any reasonable measure, either rate or counting stats. His personal accolades match Williams', but providing that defense at 1B has significantly less value than the equivalent in CF, which has something to do with team success during that time period (the Yankees were doomed anyway in the Mattingly era, but if Bernie was a 1B instead of a CF, there'd be a larger impact to the lone dynasty of the Steroid Era).

So, I wasn't making a case for Williams so much as I was implying that I wasn't just being a Yankee hater. Mattingly should only get near the HOF as a player if he's carrying Bernie's guitar for him on their way to an Old-Timer's game in Cooperstown.

[Rasmuth]

You know people WANT to put Mattingly in. I think a good (not necessarily great) run as a manager will be enough.

If Gil Hodges isn't in the HOF with his playing career and managerial career (won with the Met's in 1969) then certainly Mattingly shouldn't get in either.