Any Word About OOTP14 Features?

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

It is a text-based sim, and a very very good one, and I fear that if Markus and company spend too much time focusing on graphics (which don't improve the playability of the game), the important areas, such as AI, will suffer.

I am all for graphics at a later date. But please, let's get the "stat stuff" right before we go there.

I will basically re-post something that I posted in the suggestions forum several days ago ...


Fear is the enemy of progress.

There are countless cases from the long history of the computer gaming industry which prove that even small developers can successfully add or dramatically improve graphics while also improving the game engine and the gameplay experience. They are not mutually exclusive, and to suggest otherwise is a logical fallacy. In fact, the persistent doomsaying and worrying by those who fear graphics conflicts with all evidence to the contrary. We have the very existence, proliferation, and phenomenal innovations in the gaming industry as the overwhelming evidence that the claim that you can't do both is false. But irrational fear is a very resilient phenomenon.

Usually it's a waste of time to attempt to convince people who are ruled by fear when it comes to innovation or progress. They fail to see that discouraging the addition of graphics out of fear that the game engine will receive less attention is like telling an automaker that it shouldn't improve the interior or exterior design of a car because it might detract from work on the engine and power train. To make this claim, you would have to be grossly ignorant of how cars are designed, engineered, and manufactured, just as the people who fear graphics in text sims are grossly ignorant of how games are designed, coded, and developed.

If we listened to doomsayers and worriers, we would never have the computer games that we have today with phenomenal graphics and gameplay, and we wouldn't have cars with GPS, iPod/MP3 player integration, touch screens, power windows, power locks, remote keyless entry, and countless other innovations. Using the reasoning of the doomsayers and worriers, high performance engines and transmissions with extreme power, efficiency, and durability shouldn't exist today because adding the other aesthetic, electronic, and interactive features should have left the engine and power train to suffer. But that didn't happen, did it? Hell, there are even small car companies that hand-build cars and can deliver ancillary features AND an engine and power train that is beyond almost anything that is mass produced on this planet.

The good news is that businesses must innovate in order to retain existing customers and attract new ones. So graphics will be added to OOTP. It is inevitable, otherwise the product may eventually die out and the fear mongers will be left to mourn the loss of everything, including the game engine and gameplay.

Barring an unexpected demise for OOTP in the near term, 2D and ultimately 3D graphics will be added soon enough. I am very confident of that. And it will be done in a way that ensures continued focus on the game engine, just as automakers continuously improve and sometimes radically redesign or add new features to cars while still focusing on engine and power train performance. It can be done and has, both in the automaking world and in the world of computer games.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

I will basically re-post something that I posted in the suggestions forum several days ago ...


Fear is the enemy of progress.

There are countless cases from the long history of the computer gaming industry which prove that even small developers can successfully add or dramatically improve graphics while also improving the game engine and the gameplay experience. They are not mutually exclusive, and to suggest otherwise is a logical fallacy. In fact, the persistent doomsaying and worrying by those who fear graphics conflicts with all evidence to the contrary. We have the very existence, proliferation, and phenomenal innovations in the gaming industry as the overwhelming evidence that the claim that you can't do both is false. But irrational fear is a very resilient phenomenon.

Usually it's a waste of time to attempt to convince people who are ruled by fear when it comes to innovation or progress. They fail to see that discouraging the addition of graphics out of fear that the game engine will receive less attention is like telling an automaker that it shouldn't improve the interior or exterior design of a car because it might detract from work on the engine and power train. To make this claim, you would have to be grossly ignorant of how cars are designed, engineered, and manufactured, just as the people who fear graphics in text sims are grossly ignorant of how games are designed, coded, and developed.

If we listened to doomsayers and worriers, we would never have the computer games that we have today with phenomenal graphics and gameplay, and we wouldn't have cars with GPS, iPod/MP3 player integration, touch screens, power windows, power locks, remote keyless entry, and countless other innovations. Using the reasoning of the doomsayers and worriers, high performance engines and transmissions with extreme power, efficiency, and durability shouldn't exist today because adding the other aesthetic, electronic, and interactive features should have left the engine and power train to suffer. But that didn't happen, did it? Hell, there are even small car companies that hand-build cars and can deliver ancillary features AND an engine and power train that is beyond almost anything that is mass produced on this planet.

The good news is that businesses must innovate in order to retain existing customers and attract new ones. So graphics will be added to OOTP. It is inevitable, otherwise the product may eventually die out and the fear mongers will be left to mourn the loss of everything, including the game engine and gameplay.

Barring an unexpected demise for OOTP in the near term, 2D and ultimately 3D graphics will be added soon enough. I am very confident of that. And it will be done in a way that ensures continued focus on the game engine, just as automakers continuously improve and sometimes radically redesign or add new features to cars while still focusing on engine and power train performance. It can be done and has, both in the automaking world and in the world of computer games.

And the exact opposite is true in the other direction.

It's a total waste of time trying to convince someone that change isn't always necessary.

I've never been "against" animated graphics. I've always stated this - I started buying OOTP because it's a "Text Based Sim" without animated graphics. I'm interested in numbers, not moving pictures. When I want animated graphics I play my old HH games. When I want to manage a team and do all the management things like set line-ups, fa signings, etc etc, I play OOTP.

It's got absolutely NOTHING to do with be against animated graphics and everything to do with the type/style of game I like to play.


I don't run around crying the sky is falling because graphics might make it into OOTP. You pro graphics people sure spend a lot of time running around crying the sky will be falling if graphics don't get into the game.

Well gee, look up. The sky is still there and isn't going to fall anytime soon, graphics or not.

[PsychoBulk]

Excellent post Blue - have to agree.

Sure, some sort of graphics could be added to OOTP, but for me, one of the main reasons i play is because there isnt, i like the fact its a cold hard text sim.

When i want my graphics fix i play The Show, when i want hardcore text sim time, its OOTP.

As you said, style of play.

[hfield007]

It seems like the amount of time that would probably go into integrating graphics along with the sure to be many problems the first year it's added seems to be a lot to give up right now with so many other things being wanted by the community.

Would it be nice? yeah. Is it necessary? No. If it was necessary the game wouldn't sell as well as it has.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm hoping for more stats. And a few fixes.

I'd love to see an OPS+ that's worth something... like one that considers park effects. Oh, and dWAR anyone?

[Markus Heinsohn]

We'll announce OOTP 14 on Thursday. We'll describe a few of the new features, outline the pre-order options and the scheduled release date

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by ondemonitors

while graphics would be sweet..very sweet..I'm going to wish for the one thing I've seen several people here ask for..

Service time limits on minor league levels...

What exactly does that mean? Maybe it's easy to add...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I am all for graphics at a later date. But please, let's get the "stat stuff" right before we go there.

Where are the shortcomings you are referring to? I think the AI of OOTP has been improved every version and right now it does a pretty decent job. Will it ever match a human (without cheating)? Of course not... but we're doing pretty good in this area IMO.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

What exactly does that mean? Maybe it's easy to add...

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...me-limits.html

[VanillaGorilla]

Both Charlie and Bluenoser make valid observations and salient points. I agree with both of them.

Does OOTP NEED graphics? I don't believe so. Concur with BN on that.

Should developmental pursuit of graphics be avoided because product development is a simplistic guns or butter trade-off? I don't believe so, and I concur with CH on that.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Regarding animated 2D/3D graphics:

This will definitely be in OOTP some day. Why? Because I want it to be! It's been a dream of mine since I started coding the game. However, there are a couple of issues with it:

1) I wouldn't want to do it half-assed. I would want the player positioning and movement to be right (I am not talking the looks here, but rather where players move depending on situation/ball location etc.), and this is something not even action games like The Show get right all the time, despite them having multi-million Dollar budgets and ten times more people than we do.
2) Since we could never compete with PS3 graphics, we'd have to find a representation that would still look good without looking cheap / outdated. And that is a pretty tough task.
3) The 2D/3D engine would have to be very fast, because it would have to be used to simulate games as well, otherwise we'd have two different engines inside the game, which is something I would hate.

This all means that it is a LOT of work. And since we cannot afford to hire more people (unless you tell all your friends to buy OOTP 14), it's something that will not happen in the near future. But it will, someday.

[PSUColonel]

guess what folks?...get ready for graphics...I think they may very well be here on some level.


EDIT: Just saw post#31...maybe he will use something closer to my "gamecenter" for real-time proposal?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by hfield007

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...me-limits.html

Ah, I see. No, this would overcomplicate matters for the AI I fear, it could really screw things up. So I doubt I'll add it in OOTP 14.

[Orioles1966]

Any word if it will be possible to schedule neutral site games(like the option for FHM) for OOTP14?

[David Watts]

I'm all for graphics as long as I can turn them off. If I can still play the game using the instant short play by play I will be happy. I may even grow to like graphics for the ability to watch the playoff games.......I never make the playoffs, so I would have a lot of watching to do

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Ah, I see. No, this would overcomplicate matters for the AI I fear, it could really screw things up. So I doubt I'll add it in OOTP 14.

this is disappointing. I was really hoping this wold make into this version finally. Oh well. I suppose age limits would present the same problem?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Orioles1966

Any word if it will be possible to schedule neutral site games(like the option for FHM) for OOTP14?

You mean in the schedule editor? ... Right now it is only possible to select a neutral ballpark when playing games out.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

this is disappointing. I was really hoping this wold make into this version finally. Oh well. I suppose age limits would present the same problem?

Yes, any kind of limit is hard on the AI. It was difficult enough to have player number roster limits in the minors, but stuff like service-time and age limits would further complicate matters. Also, from a game-play perspective, I do not feel this change would be worth the work necessary, all it would result in is more micro-management, and OOTP has enough of that already IMO.

[jmount78]

I wouldn't mind graphics being upgraded, but that is why I have MLB 2K12 and MLB 12 The Show on the Play Station 3. The game is great, and it isn't Zork by any stretch of the imagination.

I would like for Markus and the team to continue to make the AI better, etc. Just my opinion.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Regarding animated 2D/3D graphics:

This will definitely be in OOTP some day. Why? Because I want it to be! It's been a dream of mine since I started coding the game. However, there are a couple of issues with it:

1) I wouldn't want to do it half-assed. I would want the player positioning and movement to be right (I am not talking the looks here, but rather where players move depending on situation/ball location etc.), and this is something not even action games like The Show get right all the time, despite them having multi-million Dollar budgets and ten times more people than we do.
2) Since we could never compete with PS3 graphics, we'd have to find a representation that would still look good without looking cheap / outdated. And that is a pretty tough task.
3) The 2D/3D engine would have to be very fast, because it would have to be used to simulate games as well, otherwise we'd have two different engines inside the game, which is something I would hate.

This all means that it is a LOT of work. And since we cannot afford to hire more people (unless you tell all your friends to buy OOTP 14), it's something that will not happen in the near future. But it will, someday.

I can deal with this, but I hope things like expanding facegen options when it comes to Uniforms and caps would be something that could be worked on with the current manpower/budget. I'd like to see that