The Final Straw--I've bought my last copy of OOTP

[mking55]

Originally Posted by fhomess

This may not be acceptable to you, but to this point, it appears that it's been acceptable to enough people that Markus anc Co. haven't addressed it in the way that you want. These rules of which you speak are not written in stone or in the laws of any government. They're written in signed checks and cashed credit card orders. Every software company has a right to choose how they will address the balance of bug fixes and new features as they release a new product and then support it thereafter. Gaming software vendors are typically not liable for failing to fix bugs in their software, and the customer has no legal expectation that the vendor will do so. That expectation comes from an expectation of quality and commitment to pleasing customers. If the company fails to deliver what the customer is after, customers will stop purchasing their product and they'll learn that they chose their priorities poorly. We really do vote with our wallets.

As part of that agreement, customers have a right to voice discontent in an attempt to influence the development and support of the product. Forums like these provide a more public venue for voicing that discontent than a direct email or letter to the vendor might. Public discourse is almost always accompanied by varying perspectives on the same issue. For those here who are displeased with Markus and OOTP, you have a right to be heard on these forums. For those here who are displeased with the malcontents, you have a right to express your opinion as well.

In other words, let's try to keep all these discussions civil, understanding that this is all part of the process. Not every disagreement is an attack. Not every attack must be responded to in kind. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Ultimately, the passion that people bring to these conversations suggests a couple of things. First, people care about OOTP. Secondly, they want the best product possible. Third, until now, it doesn't appear that they're ready to either quit simulation baseball or move to a different product. Otherwise, they'd just up and leave without much of a comment. Obviously, a software vendor needs to figure out how to maintain market share before it vanishes. Once it starts to disintegrate, it's much harder to build it back up.

An excellent post. I appreciated reading it. I like hearing those who believe in free speech. Thank you.

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by mking55

I think most of you are Americans. Perhaps you should study American history and have a refresher course on the constitution and the bill of rights. I know we're only talking about a game here but if this is the attitude when we're only talking about a game, it scares me to think about you all out there when it's something important and someone has a differing opinion.

If you needed these forums, rather than the political discourse in the US to teach you this, you're missing something.

[cody8200]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

There is a major difference between the two that you are forgetting. Markus didn't work on the baseball cards. That appears to be Andreas' work only. Therefore all of Markus' development time for this patch was on bugs. It doesn't appear to me that the baseball cards were done in spite of bugs or vice versa, its that they are mutually exclusive done by two different developers.

I think it is important to remember that.

This is absolutely true. Markus doesn't deal at all with BB cards.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Originally Posted by mking55

I am entitled to my opinion which as a moderator you should not take objection to it, as it's only an opinion. My actions are my own and are based on my long experience with this franchise.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion - and when you announce it by creating a new topic on a forum with 30,000 members, people are also entitled to comment about the opinions you have posted.

If you don't have thick enough skin to handle critical responses to the opinions you post - and not everyone does, nothing wrong with that at all - it'd probably be better not to post them.

Responses like the one posted by SteveP are only to be expected. That's part of free and open discourse.

[pbar25]

One of the problems is simply the number of versions and how much they cost.
I was dead set on not purchasing OOTP11 because I had reached my boiling point on how much I could spend on one game, that was quite literally still in development.
But I love it, and the new additions always make the game better.

BUT, how much can I spend on one game? $300? $500? As a long-time user the feeling of each new version being a patch or simple additional DLC is inescapable.
But I love it, and the new additions always make the game better. And to a newcomer that shows up, there is no substitute as your baseball simmer.

I just wish long-time purchasers got some sort of life-time license -- so nobody could get angry like this. I've been gaming since I screwed my Atari into the back of my television.
I cannot come up with a game series that has cost me more money then OOTP. I'm well over $250 invested, and just coughed up another $39.99 for OOTP11, because I'm sure the new additions are awesome, and I could no longer restrain myself.
Sure there are deals, and I missed the 50% deal (unlucky), and you can pre-order.....
But there's just something about the process and annual release that gets my blood boiling. And I'm a passionate supporter.

[RchW]

What would you pay for a lifetime licence?

It seem strange that you are angry about $500. Do you realize that a lifetime licence (not realistic at all as OOTP would go out of business in 5 years) would cost $1000 or more. I don't know anybody, including me who would pony up that cash in advance.

The discounts that OOTPD offers each year to customers is far far more than any form of long term discount could be. No business can discount its product below cost for anything but a very short period of time.

I think that Markus gets it right on the money and I have no problem buying two copies so that my son can play too. I admit that $40-$50 is not a problem for me so YMMV.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by pbar25

I'm well over $250 invested.

I have tracked my Hostess Ding Dong purchases over my lifetime and I have nearly $1,300 invested. But I'm not mad at Hostess just because they make new Dongs every DAY and I can't afford to eat every one they make. If OOTP came out daily maybe your complaint makes sense but as a yearly product I'm not sure how much water it holds. Perhaps a wineskins worth at best?

[SteveP]

There is nothing wrong with the tried-and-true "I've been a loyal customer for XX years, and I am really upset that you haven't added this feature or fixed this other one." Even you want to add the "and I'm never buying another copy of this game" pledge. Nobody is going to hold you to it if you change your mind.

I am just asking (in my own questionable way, perhaps) that people refrain from speculations or assertions on why things have not been done to your satisfaction -- including, for example, possible defect of character, lack of professional standards, bad business sense, etc. It doesn't add anything of value to the complaint, and I don't think Markus and Andreas should be in the position of having to defend themselves against such things or to try to ignore them.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by pbar25

One of the problems is simply the number of versions and how much they cost.
I was dead set on not purchasing OOTP11 because I had reached my boiling point on how much I could spend on one game, that was quite literally still in development.
But I love it, and the new additions always make the game better.

BUT, how much can I spend on one game? $300? $500? As a long-time user the feeling of each new version being a patch or simple additional DLC is inescapable.
But I love it, and the new additions always make the game better. And to a newcomer that shows up, there is no substitute as your baseball simmer.

I just wish long-time purchasers got some sort of life-time license -- so nobody could get angry like this. I've been gaming since I screwed my Atari into the back of my television.
I cannot come up with a game series that has cost me more money then OOTP. I'm well over $250 invested, and just coughed up another $39.99 for OOTP11, because I'm sure the new additions are awesome, and I could no longer restrain myself.
Sure there are deals, and I missed the 50% deal (unlucky), and you can pre-order.....
But there's just something about the process and annual release that gets my blood boiling. And I'm a passionate supporter.

Good post. I'm glad you love the game. It's great to love a game and get hours of enjoyment out of it.

This is a good example of a response to my original post. "But I love it" is a good reply to my "I don't love it". I respect your viewpoint and in a way I'm jealous of people like you who can get great enjoyment out of this.

With regards to your cost issues, this is cheap. Talk to a life-time Strat player (not me) or DMB player and see how much they've invested over the years. This is cheap and as has been pointed out, if you love it, pre-order. You save a lot. Or wait a few months because it will go on sale. It always does.

A lifetime license isn't feasible. And then again there is the option of only buying every 2nd version. For example if you love OOTP XI, you don't HAVE to buy OOTP XII. You can wait for OOTP XIII. You'll still be playing a game you love.

I just wanted to say I liked your post and it's good to hear from the "other side" in a way that doesn't resort to insults or snarky comments. Keep on enjoying the game. And it's cheap. Calculate the cost into how many hours you play. Are you playing for pennies an hour or even less?

[klonewarrior]

Originally Posted by pbar25

I cannot come up with a game series that has cost me more money then OOTP. I'm well over $250 invested, and just coughed up another $39.99 for OOTP11, because I'm sure the new additions are awesome, and I could no longer restrain myself.

I will guess that you have spent more than $250 on Windows, and Office products...I know I have...3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista, 7....

Heck how about Madden...60 bucks a pop for the last 5 years...and I pony up the money EVERY year, and each year theres a new feature...and thats well over 300 bucks not counting all the other versions of the series going back 20 years that I have...

If you really hate OOTP that much just go play something else, no one is forcing you to play the game

[wellsoliver]

Originally Posted by mking55

You guys are a riot.

With defences and attackers like you, you should have been in the army and gone overseas. You'd wipe out the Taliban and have democracy instituted in Iraq in no time flat. (No disrespect intended towards the members of the fighting forces overseas).

And god, or whomever, help those who don't toe your line and think your thoughts. Dissent is not permitted within these walls. And if your opinion is not the same as mine you're a whiner and a troublemaker. God forbid you're just someone with a differing opinion.

If I write I'm not happy because of x, y, and z, the proper reply is I am happy because of this, that, and the other. No one is offended and people are encouraged to speak freely. If I write I'm not happy because of x, y, and z and you write you're just a moron and a whiner (I'm paraphrasing), you discourage those with differing opinions from expressing them.

And as many of us know, the best results come from an open discussion of differing opinions.

I think most of you are Americans. Perhaps you should study American history and have a refresher course on the constitution and the bill of rights. I know we're only talking about a game here but if this is the attitude when we're only talking about a game, it scares me to think about you all out there when it's something important and someone has a differing opinion.

Um, you should go away now. Like you were threatening to do in the first post in this thread.

[mking55]

The main points of the post by pbar25:

Originally Posted by pbar25

But I love it, and the new additions always make the game better.

But there's just something about the process and annual release that gets my blood boiling. And I'm a passionate supporter.

And the conclusion of your post:

Originally Posted by klonewarrior

If you really hate OOTP that much just go play something else, no one is forcing you to play the game

klonewarrior, what is your first language? It certainly can't be English or you're just challenged by comprehending what you read.

The man says he loves the game. He's concerned about money (as many of us are) but at the end of the day he loves the game, he buys it, and he supports it.

You tell him to go play something else. What part of "I love it" don't you understand?

There are some wonderful people on this board. However, there are many unpleasant people who just love to show how intolerant they are, or how they love to take exception to things other people write. What's wrong with being polite? What's wrong with respecting other opinions?

I'm not perfect. I've lost it many times over the 10 years or so I've been around OOTP. The last couple of days I took a different tack. I'm trying to be polite. I'm trying to be respectful. But your post, klonewarrior, goes beyond the pale.

Sheesh, some of you just don't get it. I said "some", this is not a blanket indictment of everyone.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by wellsoliver

Um, you should go away now. Like you were threatening to do in the first post in this thread.

English my man. That's the language that's in use here.

I never threatened to leave the board. I said I wasn't buying the game anymore. There is a difference. Please try to read things more carefully.

And I'm glad you quoted that post. You recognized yourself in it. Good for you!

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by mking55

I never threatened to leave the board. I said I wasn't buying the game anymore.

So your'e sticking around but not buying? Well congrats I guess. I think there's one of two folks in Off Topic that were following that for a while.

Now we can get back to gaming, talking about the game, and seeing whats' in the new patch.

[MizzouRah]

This reminds me of a post I would see over at Operation Sports.

It sucks you don't like the game mk, but why not send Markus a PM on why you're not buying his game anymore?

[actionjackson]

mking55, don't take this the wrong way, but you have a very abrasive style. Put another way, I've never seen you use honey in your requests for solutions - it's mostly been vitriolic vinegar. At least that's the way it appears on screen and without too many of these , it's difficult to tell whether you're being sarcastic or genuinely peeved. A lot of your posts seem almost designed to generate a defensive response from other forum members, so you can whack them over the head for being defensive of the game they love and that they don't encounter as many bugs with as you and I do.

If I played in a manner that enabled me to not see many of these bugs (and a lot of people do), I might tend towards a dismissive attitude of the "whiners" too (put in quotes because perhaps some board members perceive me to be a "whiner" which is fine). I don't play fictional because I just can't get into it for a number of reasons, but I'm certainly not going to label those that do defenders of the game or attackers of myself.

It is perfectly acceptable to have issues with the game and be frustrated with long standing bugs that haven't been squished yet. The response you're going to get when you express your displeasure can be controlled by you. If you want to run down all the people that don't agree with your point of view that's fine, but I doubt you're going to get a positive response or get anywhere with your issues.

I fully acknowledge that you have been here far longer than me and therefore your frustrations have had more time to build up and boil over. Perhaps in a few years I'll open a thread like this to express my frustration, but I doubt it because that's not my style. Don't get me wrong, that does not make me content to settle for a game that's incompatible with my style of play. It just means I have a different way of expressing my disappointment/frustration. There's no right way of doing it, but there is a way of doing it that will ensure that I don't get my head cut off and tons of forum grenades launched in my direction and I can still get my point across. Perhaps you tried the ask nicely method and when that didn't work, you went on the warpath. I wouldn't know because you've got about seven years on me here.

If I see something that makes the way I play unplayable, I will get after Markus and Co. both through the official system (the support ticket thingy) and through other means (this board). I won't let up until it's fixed, but at the same time you won't see me breaking out the Uzi and going on a rampage (though some may think I do), because I'm pretty sure that method won't work.

What I see in your posts is passion. Passion to help make the game better, but it's getting clouded over by the tone you're using to express that passion. I can see that you want OOTP to be both a great fictional game and a great historical game. I believe (though I am not sure) that the historical part of the game lags behind the fictional part because it was originally created for fictional players and then the historical part was tacked on in response to customer demand. It's possible the historical can one day get to the level of the fictional, if keen historical players like Spritze, Garlon, Gambo, Bristolduke, Biggio509, yourself, myself and others continue to push it in that direction, but how's it supposed to get better if we throw our hands up in resignation and leave? I think if you stayed on, you could contribute a lot to this game because you want it to be better.

I know you're pissed right now (you're not alone), but I also know that every forum member's input is valuable if this game is going to be as good as it can be. It can't get there if we take our frustration out on each other and on those whose game experience is trouble free and perfectly fine right now thank you very much. Take a deep breath and think it over or arm yourself and continue blasting away at the rest of us peons. Your choice.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

This reminds me of a post I would see over at Operation Sports.

It sucks you don't like the game mk, but why not send Markus a PM on why you're not buying his game anymore?

Then we wouldn't have this public notice that he's leaving to show that there's many others on this board that agree with his position and have this public wave of lost customers following.



Or not...

[klonewarrior]

Mking55,

Actually English is NOT my first language. So thank you for noticing, and attacking me for my lack of knowledge on your fine language. You are such a sweet and caring gentlemen, and a fine specimen of your nation. I will remember that when I decide to go to your homeland, Douchebagistan, on vacation.

Seriously though, if your unhappy with the business model of OOTP, the game, the message board, or anything else here, you can just simply go away.

Im sure the rest of the ladies playing Farmville will welcome you with open arms as you harvest your fake plants, instead of playing with your fake baseball teams.

[KowboyKoop]

When you go to Douchebagistein, say "hi" to Nickelback and Dane Cook for me.

Actually, don't say "hi," just punch them in the face please.

[rwd59]

Originally Posted by mking55

1. When offering a free agent a contract and I meet demand, I will often get an email telling me my offer is way off base. I go back into the free agent and he's asking for what I just gave him. If the plan is to drive the gameplayer crazy, it's working. Otherwise it's a legacy bug that is being ignored.


Martin

It happens all too often as well when you are trying to sign one of your own potential free agents. I can maybe understand it with a FA but not with a player that is still on your team.