Player Rest

[Syd Thrift]

Giving the player a day game off after a night game definitely doesn't go back to Ruth's time seeing as there weren't any night games at all until the 30s.

[Kekkonen]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Fatigue should be tied to defensive innings played rather than games played.

That's an excellent suggestion. That would also remove DH fatigue, which I'd consider a plus.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Then why do players ever get a day off?

Well, by the rules of the CBA, teams can be scheduled for no more than twenty days of play in a row without getting a day off. So players are getting at least one day off every three weeks no matter what. In most cases its a bit more than that.

Of course, postponements always throw in a couple of extra days off, though that is counterbalanced by having to play doubleheaders to make them up.

[ey215]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Fatigue should be tied to defensive innings played rather than games played. That way a player that pinch hits or comes in as a late inning replacement doesn't get as fatigued as a player that starts and goes nine innings. And a player that plays 15 innings in an extra inning game is more fatigued than a player that only played 9 innings.

In my mind, this is an ideal situation. Also, really each position should fatigue differently.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, by the rules of the CBA, teams can be scheduled for no more than twenty days of play in a row without getting a day off. So players are getting at least one day off every three weeks no matter what. In most cases its a bit more than that.

Of course, postponements always throw in a couple of extra days off, though that is counterbalanced by having to play doubleheaders to make them up.

Unfortunately most of those days are still travel days.

In my opinion, as stated before, fatigue simulates the little things that arn't really injuries. Every player gets pulls, strains, bruises, and the like. That is what happen when you play sports. Also, there is the mental strain as well. Just like muscles the brain can get tired. Lets also not forget that these guys just don't go to work the 3 hours on the field. When they're not playing they are working out, practicing, reviewing game tape, reading scouting reports, working on lots of things to keep themselves performing at the highest level.. These guys do not get weekends. And a lot of time starting work a different time every day.

As anyone who has worked long stretches with days off can attest to, a grind will wear you down. The younger you are the better able you are to cope with these situations. I agree that as the ai gets more advanced that should be taken into account. However, i feel that having no position player fatigue is a little unreasonable. I mean how many people here can work 3 weeks straight without a dayoff without some performance drop? Then you'd only get one day off in which you're likely travelling and then work another 3 weeks straight.. lather, rinse and repeat...

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

Unfortunately most of those days are still travel days.

In my opinion, as stated before, fatigue simulates the little things that arn't really injuries. Every player gets pulls, strains, bruises, and the like. That is what happen when you play sports. Also, there is the mental strain as well. Just like muscles the brain can get tired. Lets also not forget that these guys just don't go to work the 3 hours on the field. When they're not playing they are working out, practicing, reviewing game tape, reading scouting reports, working on lots of things to keep themselves performing at the highest level.. These guys do not get weekends. And a lot of time starting work a different time every day.

As anyone who has worked long stretches with days off can attest to, a grind will wear you down. The younger you are the better able you are to cope with these situations. I agree that as the ai gets more advanced that should be taken into account. However, i feel that having no position player fatigue is a little unreasonable. I mean how many people here can work 3 weeks straight without a dayoff without some performance drop? Then you'd only get one day off in which you're likely travelling and then work another 3 weeks straight.. lather, rinse and repeat...

My point exactly. That day off of playing isn't really a day off at all from the grind....

[CBL-Commish]

This thread has been a lot of speculation and not much data. QuestDog has said over and over that fatigue doesn't exist, others have agreed, or thrown in some subjective information.

So what really happens to players who play every single day?

Cal Ripken's OPS peaked in July (820), and tailed off to 766 and 753 in August and September.

Miguel Tejada's OPS was 838 in July, 821 in August, and 796 in September.

Steve Garvey peaked in September.

Retrosheet doesn't have Everett Scott's data.

Billy Williams had an .890-900 OPS in May-July, then was in the 830 range in August and September. He also played all of his home games in the day.

We only have the splits of the tail end of Stan Musial's career, after his consecutive games streak was over, but he played much better in June than in September.

Same for Eddie Yost, but his limited splits are all over the place.

Pete Rose was pretty consistent throughout the year, but his September OPS was 15 points off his July peak.

Dale Murphy was also very consistent, but his two lowest OPSes were August and September.

Does any of this prove anything? No, it could be that league OPSes peak in July and tail off through August and September due to weather or some other factor. But there does seem to be at least some evidence that players who are known for never taking a day off hit better in the middle than at the end of seasons.

Which may or may not be evidence that fatigue needs to be modeled the way it currently is.

[Questdog]

I think you will find that OPS for the league as a whole is much better in the hot months than the cool ones. Normalize those players mentioned to the overall OPS in their leagues for each month and you will have a legitimate study.

[Syd Thrift]

Well... not really. The sample size is still too small.

[sporr]

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar....php?p=1826981

[Questdog]

All I know is that I played Centerfield in college and I NEVER was tired from playing a game. And I was a speedy leadoff type who ran a LOT. We didn't play 162 games but we played about 30-40 in one month in the fall and 60 or so in 2 months in the spring....

[LeiterFanatic]

I would rather see pitcher fatigue reworked, specifically relief pitcher effectiveness, than position player fatigue.

[Bishop]

Presumably you were a young guy then too. I'd wager the guys still playing in their 30's + over the course of a 162 game season do have fatigue hit them harder than guys in their early 20's.

Granted, I don't have any stats to back up my feelings

[Erik W.]

Originally Posted by Questdog

All I know is that I played Centerfield in college and I NEVER was tired from playing a game. And I was a speedy leadoff type who ran a LOT. We didn't play 162 games but we played about 30-40 in one month in the fall and 60 or so in 2 months in the spring....

Was this beer league or something?

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Questdog

All I know is that I played Centerfield in college and I NEVER was tired from playing a game. And I was a speedy leadoff type who ran a LOT. We didn't play 162 games but we played about 30-40 in one month in the fall and 60 or so in 2 months in the spring....

Well 1) I would think that fatigue would be much less of a factor for someone in their late teen's or early 20's than for a player who is in his mid to late 30's. 2) I would also doubt that you were expected to do as much extra work on game days in college as most pro's do. I have a friend who is in the minors and he has told me that it isn't even close the amount of running/fielding work that is expected of players every day there than when he was in college. I'm sure once they get to the majors some of those decisions are left up to the players as far as how they prepare but I would bet they are expected to get a decent amount of work in on most clubs.

Trying to use personal experience to base what should be the effects of a feature in a game such as this is just a bad idea in general. There are way too many factors that are going to be different from your experience and the situation the game is trying to replicate to realistically compare them.

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by andymac

I'm sure once they get to the majors some of those decisions are left up to the players as far as how they prepare but I would bet they are expected to get a decent amount of work in on most clubs.

Unless you're C.C. Sabathia

[LeiterFanatic]

Originally Posted by Azamien

Was this beer league or something?

LOL

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by andymac

Well 1) I would think that fatigue would be much less of a factor for someone in their late teen's or early 20's than for a player who is in his mid to late 30's. 2) I would also doubt that you were expected to do as much extra work on game days in college as most pro's do. I have a friend who is in the minors and he has told me that it isn't even close the amount of running/fielding work that is expected of players every day there than when he was in college. I'm sure once they get to the majors some of those decisions are left up to the players as far as how they prepare but I would bet they are expected to get a decent amount of work in on most clubs.

Trying to use personal experience to base what should be the effects of a feature in a game such as this is just a bad idea in general. There are way too many factors that are going to be different from your experience and the situation the game is trying to replicate to realistically compare them.

To hear my friend's wife talk it sounds like fatigue definintely is more noticable and performance affecting to "players" in their 30s as opposed to their 20s.

[CMH]

I'm 24 and I definitely had fatigue from getting up in the morning every day to go to work. Granted I worked 12 hour days and some Saturdays, but I would get tired.

I can't see how a baseball player wouldn't be tired from working everyday. The guys don't just play baseball for three hours. They do practice and travel as well.

I agree that they don't necessarily get tired from playing the game. But, I'd say they do get tired just from working all day.

Give a player a full day off with nothing to do but maybe go to the gym and relax and I'd bet they'd feel refreshed the next day.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Giving the player a day game off after a night game definitely doesn't go back to Ruth's time seeing as there weren't any night games at all until the 30s.

Interestingly though, the first few years night games were allowed in the majors, the rules actually specified that a scheduled night game was to be followed by an off day (though in practice this rule was often broken).