One Moderator's Warning

[scefalu]

I'd like to think we shouldn't need to police the behavior of people, and you can understand if I am skeptical of your latest initiative. However, I have seen such boorish behavior on other forums that this board seems G-rated. Still, you're right, battists, people need to stick to the issues affecting the game. I wish you luck, and here's hoping that it works.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by deadringer

I appreciate at least an attempt to restore things to order.

I myself have been sick of the arguments and personal attacks and don't see why a group of intelligent people can't choose to disagree with each other a little in a little more civil manner.

Yeah! What he said. Also people should stick to the subject of the thread instead of hijacking it for their own purposes. Are they too lazy to dig up the old thread from archive and start their argument up again?

[kq76]

I think someone went on vacation, had a good relaxing peaceful time, then came back and immediately became frustrated by what they came back to. I doubt I'm not the only one who notices people are more apt to quit their jobs after coming back from vacations.

[Whitey]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Just take it easy guys... this is a board about a GAME. It should be fun!

I'm reminded of the scene in Fever Pitch where the guys are crying over their beer that the Red Sox had blown it and look over and see Johnny Damon and Jason Varitek eating, drinking and having a good time. We get a little passionate about the game and the founder has to remind us that indeed it is "just a game". Of course, Markus is correct but sometimes our passion shows a little much.

[andymac]

Maybe you should just open up a thread and call it "The Wolf And PureSim" and move his post (and any responses to it) there when you see them.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by battists

magnet, sdpm100, anyone

I'm absolutely open to the idea that this could open a can of worms. I'm also completely open to other suggestions as to how to improve the situation.

What I'm not open to (at the moment) is letting the situation continue to deteriorate. If I try something, and it causes problems, well, at least I can say that I tried, right?

Steve

In my opinion, it is the subjective nature that will cause you problems. What you might class as warnable, others won't. However, as long as you realise what you're letting yourself in for, then who am I to argue how you wish to moderate.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by andymac

Maybe you should just open up a thread and call it "The Wolf And PureSim" and move his post (and any responses to it) there when you see them.

it would at least be more organized

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by andymac

Maybe you should just open up a thread and call it "The Wolf And PureSim" and move his post (and any responses to it) there when you see them.

Just reverse sticky it, to the bottom of the board. Can do?

[battists]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

In my opinion, it is the subjective nature that will cause you problems. What you might class as warnable, others won't. However, as long as you realise what you're letting yourself in for, then who am I to argue how you wish to moderate.

No doubt. Such is the plight of all moderators, for the most part.

I guess the question that struck me when I posted that originally was, "Do I want this to continue to be a place where people are allowed to attack one another angrily, or do I want to at least attempt to do something about it?" Maybe andymac is right, and it's not as prevalent as I feel it is. But, I've received a number of personal requests along these lines, and I can tell you that every reported post I've received since I've been a moderator has had something to do with this. So, even if it's not an epidemic, there's certainly some evidence that it's an issue.

To put it into a baseball metaphor, if you throw a bean ball at someone, you get a warning, and then ultimately you get thrown out of the game if you keep doing it. That's subjective as well, and a point of argument in baseball games. Yet, the participants understand that there's a risk they're going to get tossed if they stray to close to that line, and doubly so if there has already been an incident in a game.

Maybe I'll accomplish the same thing simply by calling attention to it, but I doubt it, since others have done so before with no noticeable improvement.

Steve

[Charlie Hough]

I say these forums should be run like those at SI. The rules are stated very clearly in sticky threads. If you violate the rules, you get a warning. If you do it again, you're banned. No recourse, no appeals. If you whine and complain about a warning, then you just write your own ticket for a permanent ban.

The moderators are swift, consistent, and fair about it. And while there is plenty of banter on the forums, including open criticism of SI, there is swift judgment on anyone who takes it too far.

[deadringer]

Originally Posted by andymac

Maybe you should just open up a thread and call it "The Wolf And PureSim" and move his post (and any responses to it) there when you see them.

No offense andymac but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're picking on a guy and calling him out when he hasn't said a word in this thread. Now, whether the Wolf's posts or behavior are appropriate or not depends greatly on your perspective but if he'd come in and said a similiar thing about you before you'd stepped into the thread the war would be on.

It's not a question of who's wrong or who's right, it's about who's stirring the pot and who's provoking arguments instead of discussions. I don't care who you had made that statement about, it can only bring about an argument.

I don't think any posts that no good could possibly come from should be tolerated.

If you disagree with a post or poster, fine, say so in a civil manner and move on. Or better yet, ignore them if they're that far under your skin.

This place would be a lot better if we just treated everyone like we'd like to be treated.

[deadringer]

Dola,

And for the record, I don't agree with everything The Wolf has said or posted either but there's no need to needle him.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by deadringer

No offense andymac but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're picking on a guy and calling him out when he hasn't said a word in this thread. Now, whether the Wolf's posts or behavior are appropriate or not depends greatly on your perspective but if he'd come in and said a similiar thing about you before you'd stepped into the thread the war would be on.

It's not a question of who's wrong or who's right, it's about who's stirring the pot and who's provoking arguments instead of discussions. I don't care who you had made that statement about, it can only bring about an argument.

I don't think any posts that no good could possibly come from should be tolerated.

If you disagree with a post or poster, fine, say so in a civil manner and move on. Or better yet, ignore them if they're that far under your skin.

This place would be a lot better if we just treated everyone like we'd like to be treated.

He hasn't posted in this thread, but the thread topic is about a subject that he has largely been involved in. I don't think you could find many of those discussions that "deteriorated" without finding a post of his that started the topic shift.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by deadringer

Dola,

And for the record, I don't agree with everything The Wolf has said or posted either but there's no need to needle him.

My issues with The Wolf rarely have anything to do with agreeing/disagreeing with what he says, instead it is about where and how he goes about it. He tends to post part of the story, so I try to lay the whole thing out there (which of course makes me a fanboy).

[Twelvefield]

I've got a suggestion for board moderation, based on my personal experience of exactly zero hours, minutes, and seconds of board moderation:

How about some kind of "phantom zone" fanboy vs. angryboy (whatever the opposite of fanboy is) arena-style forum? What I mean is something that falls between off-topic and here. Someplace where all of the flaggable messages can just be dumped, and someplace where all of the bad blood can be worked out (or conveniently ignored).

For a while, my off-topic posts just got dumped into the Off-Topic forum, which is what the rules say should happen. I'm fine with that, but that doesn't seem to be happening so much any more. I don't think I'm any more capable of staying on topic than when before OOTPB came out, so I'm assuming this change of state lies elsewhere.

People will no doubt complain that their on-topic rants don't deserve to be dumped into Off-Topic, and likely they will complain even more if they are warned against "tone" - it seems kind of undemocratic. Well, they will certainly complain about being dumped into the Phantom Zone, but that's the beauty of a Phantom Zone in the first place: you can yell and scream all you want and it doesn't do anyone much harm.

In fact, I'd be honoured it it were named "The Twelvefield Honourary Phantom Zone". I've always liked to have things named after myself, or failing that, having them named after my obscure forum nickname.

That being said, this forum would have to fall a long, long ways before it descends into the usual forum junk I've seen, or even worse, an EA or Maddox (fighter plane sim) forum.

[deadringer]

Originally Posted by andymac

My issues with The Wolf rarely have anything to do with agreeing/disagreeing with what he says, instead it is about where and how he goes about it. He tends to post part of the story, so I try to lay the whole thing out there (which of course makes me a fanboy).

And this is exactly what I'm saying to you. I don't agree or disagree with what you're saying but I completely disagree with the way you went about it.

What you did in your post that I originally quoted was to single him out. There really isn't anywhere for that line of discussion to go but down. You could have simply ignored him, gone on to argue with him through PM's, or call him out and continue arguing with him in public (which is what you chose to do). It's like poking the proverbial sleeping dog with a stick.

Not to mention that your post about the Wolf states loudly and clearly that he has nothing of merit to add to the discussion which simply put, isn't your place. You leave him little to no choice but to argue back.

If humor is your aim (and I think is welcome around these parts) choosing someone that you've been publicly battling to choice as the butt of your jokes isn't exactly a wise move.

Now, to show you that this can remain civil, I've said my peace and have no ill feelings towards either of you. I was able to do so without a single personal attack or pointless arguing.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by deadringer

Not to mention that your post about the Wolf states loudly and clearly that he has nothing of merit to add to the discussion which simply put, isn't your place. You leave him little to no choice but to argue back.

This isn't the case. I think he has some legit suggestions and that many of the things he wants added would be beneficial. What I don't think we need is his (paraphrasing) "Shaun Sullivan added expansion in 2 weeks so it is obvious that OOTP is just ignoring suggestions and/or lying about the difficulty it takes to implement" schtick, especially when he is basically throwing them into threads that have nothing to do with expansion. Part of the reason I am against the warning system is because it could cause us to lose his type who while they don't do it the best way can point out valid concerns.

At the same time, I am not just going to ignore those type of statements without a bit of a rebuttal because, well, too many people believe exactly what they read and we don't need that crap floating around as truth.

As far as the statement you originally objected to, yes it was meant to be sarcastic (which I thought was obvious).

[Charlie Hough]

As long as a customer is still willing to come forward and complain, you still have a chance to satisfy that customer and make a sale. But as soon as you engage him in combat and drive him away, then you've lost any chance at communication, customer satisfaction, and future sales.

With that in mind, people might want to ask themselves a few quick questions before responding to someone's criticism or suggestions. The ones that come to my mind are:

1. Am I as qualified as Markus to address this issue if it concerns actual coding of the game and implementing any changes or features?

2. Do I have thorough knowledge of this issue, and do I regularly play OOTP in a way that is relevant to the topic?

3. Is this an issue that is CRITICALLY important to me and to my enjoyment of the game?

4. Will my posting actually advance the discussion and help build greater customer satisfaction, or am I possibly going to downplay or obstruct something that might be VERY important to another customer?

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

As long as a customer is still willing to come forward and complain, you still have a chance to satisfy that customer and make a sale. But as soon as you engage him in combat and drive him away, then you've lost any chance at communication, customer satisfaction, and future sales.

With that in mind, people should ask themselves a few quick questions before responding to someone's criticism or suggestions. The ones that come to my mind are:

1. Am I as qualified as Markus to address this issue if it concerns actual coding of the game and implementing any changes or features?

Markus can't answer or comment on every suggestion/request. There is a suggestion forum if you want to make suggestions without comment from anyone else. If you make a suggestion in the discussion forum every poster has the right to comment on that suggestion.

2. Do I have thorough knowledge of this issue, and do I regularly play OOTP in a way that is relevant to the topic?

I agree here, but it also shouldn't be assumed by the suggestor that just because a poster does not agree with them or has comments about there suggestion that aren't completely supportive of them that they do not regularly play OOTP in a way that is relevent to the topic.

3. Is this an issue that is CRITICALLY important to me and to my enjoyment of the game?

You can't limit people to discussing things that are "critically" important. Everyone places different degree's of importance on everything. If they have any interest in the subject they should be able to comment on it.

4. Will my posting actually advance the discussion and help build greater customer satisfaction, or am I possibly going to downplay or obstruct something that might be VERY important to another customer?

People who post suggestions should also be able to take criticism of it without becoming offended or defensive about it. Here is a thread where I made a suggestion that produced some mixed opinions and was able to be discussed without hard feelings. Or go through the many threads involving pitcher creation I have been involved in. You can't expect that just because you want to see something that the entire community is going to be gung-ho about it being a top priority and you shouldn't expect them to not offer opinions.


Also, may I ask why you must bold parts of your posts? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything here, but it can be somewhat annoying (and comes across as you are yelling or being demanding). I am just curious as to your reasoning behind it.

[battists]

Originally Posted by Twelvefield

I've got a suggestion for board moderation, based on my personal experience of exactly zero hours, minutes, and seconds of board moderation:

How about some kind of "phantom zone" fanboy vs. angryboy (whatever the opposite of fanboy is) arena-style forum?

Twelve, my issue with this is simply that we don't have the manpower to move all of those posts. It's not my intent to go warning every post I see. But rather, my hope is that tightening the reigns somewhat will cause people to think twice and police their own posts.