Gambo and T_Wil1 Photopack

[Patsy Tebeau]

Originally Posted by Chickazoola

So for the Jay Clarke debate, his nickname is clearly derived from a racial slur. His wife hated the nickname and wanted the papers to use his given name. I think it's ok to move on from it and the bbref handles it tastefully by including a note about its usage.

Standards evolve and change over time and what was acceptable and "normal" can change. Acknowledging that things change is good and worthwhile, but also giving context is equally important. There is difference between whitewashing history and contextualizing history and I think bbref handles it about as well as you can.

I noticed baseball reference changed a lot of players with nicknames to their actual names such as Cannonball Titcomb to Ledell Titcomb and Queenie O'Rourke to Jimmy O'Rourke. They even changed Bub McAtee to Michael McAtee too for whatever reason. While they definitely did say they were specifically going through to remove the offensive nicknames, remember most of these guys were still widely known by their actual names and the nicknames were mostly just used occasionally in papers. Such as Buttercup Dickerson who was mostly listed as Lew Dickerson in most papers (yet his b ref page still has him listed as Buttercup).

[Patsy Tebeau]

These are from the 1867, 1868, and 1869 Lansingburgh Unions team photos.

EDIT: Since they got uploaded backwards somehow: The first one is from 69, the second one is from 68, and the third one is from 67.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Patsy Tebeau

"I knew it had to be you" 1, im not the seller i just found the item on ebay, and yea 2 i get we all screw up at times but sheesh i mean i never spent thousands on their items like im sure some saps did nor am i the one with the profile pic of the guy who believes adam lanza was fake (which is frankly an embarrassment on its own on top of that baseless accusation of me being the seller but go off hun) plenty of people on here have made errors with photo identification like the one where they said president hayes's son with the croghan baseball team was John Bass and the very obviously reversed image of some left handed player that they thought was someone else, so theres no real reason to personally attack me

You posted the pike they had for sale, assumed it was you.

Also, you type exactly the same manner that they do.

[Patsy Tebeau]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

You posted the pike they had for sale, assumed it was you.

Also, you type exactly the same manner that they do.

Well i'm not them, nor do i have enough free time or motivation to acquire random pictures from 200 years ago and sell them for outrageous amounts of money on the internet. Being a scammer along with a number of other things such as those guys who plow kids out of the way to get 10 of the same card signed by Joe Shmo relief pitcher to sell just seem like they would take too much time and effort to do as opposed to working a real job where you can make actual money for way less effort. I admitted my rookie mistakes in not doing enough research on viewing the seller of the items page so please don't go turning this into a big conspiracy theory against me or whatever. Now that its obvious to everyone here what they are i wonder if there is a way we can get them removed from ebay? because it does appear to be blatant scamming for many of their items. i really have little knowledge of how ebay works aside from just searching random team and player names in hopes to find rare pictures to put on here. Though I do think the pike image could potentially be real as the back does say IE Pike and the ears do look like they could be a match but it is a very blurrry picture to compare it to. A majority or the images are definitely fakes without a doubt though and something should be done about them

[Patsy Tebeau]

The description of their one item you posted about kinda sounded like one of those shady people trying to sell a fake Rolex on the street. Didn't realize i type like one of those

[Patsy Tebeau]

This picture is from his obituary

[rrb77]

1910 Boston Red Sox...from current RMY auction.

[cinemaodyssey]

From the current RMY auctions comes Menze, a local St. Louis boy who made it to the big leagues at a young age.

[rrb77]

1914 NY Yankees...from current RMY auction.

[cinemaodyssey]

I have a few concerns about Charlie E. Miller's photo in the Facepack and posted in 2010 as a member of the Lowell team. I haven't found a record of him playing for Lowell, as St. Louis sent him briefly to Chattanooga for seasoning and then they promptly sent him back. They did, however, send Ed Miller to Lowell.

Second, are we certain the ballplayer was Charlie Miller and not John Fletcher Miller? They were brothers and both played in the Warrensburg area. Upon his retirement in 1956, the Warrensburg Star-Journal claims he played for the St. Louis Browns for one season and afterwards he coached for the University of Missouri. More interestingly, a newspaper clip from 1919 also references his time with the Browns.

If it is indeed Charlie that played for the Browns that one game in 1912, I did find an image of him as an older man. There are likely images of him at the University of Central Missouri archives as well.

[Cusick]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I have a few concerns about Charlie E. Miller's photo in the Facepack and posted in 2010 as a member of the Lowell team. I haven't found a record of him playing for Lowell, as St. Louis sent him briefly to Chattanooga for seasoning and then they promptly sent him back. They did, however, send Ed Miller to Lowell.

Second, are we certain the ballplayer was Charlie Miller and not John Fletcher Miller? They were brothers and both played in the Warrensburg area. Upon his retirement in 1956, the Warrensburg Star-Journal claims he played for the St. Louis Browns for one season and afterwards he coached for the University of Missouri. More interestingly, a newspaper clip from 1919 also references his time with the Browns.

If it is indeed Charlie that played for the Browns that one game in 1912, I did find an image of him as an older man. There are likely images of him at the University of Central Missouri archives as well.

The Lowell photo of Charlie Miller was identified by Marc Okkonen and used in his book, 2000 CUPS OF COFFEE. Marc didn't have the Internet tools that are available today. One of the tools he used for minor league teams was the reserve lists published by the Sporting News. I don't know whether the Miller associated with 1912 and 1913 Lowell on those reserve lists was published with a first name, but Marc was pretty confident that it was Charlie.

Now that you have found an image of Charlie Miller as an older man, it's probably safer to use that one. Thanks for sharing.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by Cusick

The Lowell photo of Charlie Miller was identified by Marc Okkonen and used in his book, 2000 CUPS OF COFFEE. Marc didn't have the Internet tools that are available today. One of the tools he used for minor league teams was the reserve lists published by the Sporting News. I don't know whether the Miller associated with 1912 and 1913 Lowell on those reserve lists was published with a first name, but Marc was pretty confident that it was Charlie.

Now that you have found an image of Charlie Miller as an older man, it's probably safer to use that one. Thanks for sharing.

I appreciate the background information on the image of Miller circulating right now. I've posted this confirmed image of Charlie E. Miller from the 8/7/1913 edition of the Warrensburg Daily Star-Journal showing him as a member of the basketball team in college. There is a lengthy bio of him and his sports exploits and there is no mention of him playing for the Browns the previous season. I believe the attached newspaper clipping from the 7/11/1912 edition of the Warrensburg Daily Star-Journal confirms that John Miller is the player who appeared for the Browns in that 1 game.

[rrb77]

1924 Cincinnati Reds...from current RMY auction.

[Chickazoola]

I've passed along cinemaodyssey's discovery of Johnny Miller to the SABR Biographical Research Committee. Hope to get it updated in the record book in the next little while.

[rrb77]

1925 NY Giants...from current Love the Game Auction.

[rrb77]

1939 NY Giants...from current Love of the Game auction.

[Patsy Tebeau]

This picture is from MLB The Show 10 and is almost certainly just edited to have Greene wearing a Rangers uniform since he was released just a month after signing with the team in 2010 but it still gives a good view of what he would have looked like in the uniform.

[cinemaodyssey]

It appears the baseball-reference photo (and the one in the Facepack) actually depicts Nick Maddox instead of Flynn. I found a good facial reference in the 12/25/1910 edition of The Pittsburgh Press and found him in the 1910 Pirates spring training photo.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

It appears the baseball-reference photo (and the one in the Facepack) actually depicts Nick Maddox instead of Flynn. I found a good facial reference in the 12/25/1910 edition of The Pittsburgh Press and found him in the 1910 Pirates spring training photo.

Here's a portrait of Flynn wearing the Pirates' uniform (sorry; I don't have the source):

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I have a few concerns about Charlie E. Miller's photo in the Facepack and posted in 2010 as a member of the Lowell team. I haven't found a record of him playing for Lowell, as St. Louis sent him briefly to Chattanooga for seasoning and then they promptly sent him back. They did, however, send Ed Miller to Lowell.

Second, are we certain the ballplayer was Charlie Miller and not John Fletcher Miller? They were brothers and both played in the Warrensburg area. Upon his retirement in 1956, the Warrensburg Star-Journal claims he played for the St. Louis Browns for one season and afterwards he coached for the University of Missouri. More interestingly, a newspaper clip from 1919 also references his time with the Browns.

If it is indeed Charlie that played for the Browns that one game in 1912, I did find an image of him as an older man. There are likely images of him at the University of Central Missouri archives as well.

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I appreciate the background information on the image of Miller circulating right now. I've posted this confirmed image of Charlie E. Miller from the 8/7/1913 edition of the Warrensburg Daily Star-Journal showing him as a member of the basketball team in college. There is a lengthy bio of him and his sports exploits and there is no mention of him playing for the Browns the previous season. I believe the attached newspaper clipping from the 7/11/1912 edition of the Warrensburg Daily Star-Journal confirms that John Miller is the player who appeared for the Browns in that 1 game.

Originally Posted by Chickazoola

I've passed along cinemaodyssey's discovery of Johnny Miller to the SABR Biographical Research Committee. Hope to get it updated in the record book in the next little while.

The current version of the SABR Biographical Research Committee newsletter was released today, with the Miller correction discovered by Cinemaodyssey prominently featured. With the ID change broadly accepted, here is an image of Johnny Miller, pictured as an instructor at the University of Missouri in 1917.

Thanks, Cinemaodyssey and Chickalooza for the ID correction and publication!