The 2023 NFL Season Thread

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Raiders fire Josh McDaniels & GM Dave Ziegler.

Mark Davis wanted the Tom Brady era Patriots and got the Mac Jones era Patriots.

[Ragnar]

Something interesting happened during the game between the Jets and Giants. I actually applaud the ref for what he did.

With 17 seconds left, and the Jets down by 3, Wilson hits Lazard and has to rush to the line to spike the ball. The ball is handed to the center, the center spots the ball. The ref runs by and taps it. This allows the Jets to spike it with one second left.

The Giants can't complain because the ref has plausible deniability. I just like that the ref did everything he could to allow a spike with time left on the clock.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Ok. The main rule is, if a receiver doesn't have a realistic chance at catching the ball. As far as that part goes, the rules haven't changed. That's why I brought up the Kilmer play. Also don't forget, intentional plays a role too. If a WR and QB aren't on the same page, the ball goes long when the WR comes back, that's not intentional.

The rules that have changed would be the part about being in the pocket as opposed to outside the pocket. But the league seemed to have adopted a rule that isn't in the books. That if a WR is anywhere near the ball, it's not intentional grounding. That's not in the books.

On Monday night we saw textbook intentional grounding by Goff. But they didn't call it. Goff, while in the pocket, just threw the ball into the dirt. But since the ball sailed past Gibbs head, it was ok. Just change the rule in the book.

The rules are very clear that once the QB steps beyond the tackles, all he has to do is reach the line of scrimmage with the throw. He can sail it out of bounds, he can throw it out of the end zone, whatever. As far as in the pocket goes, it does have to be catchable but as you note, "catchable" is both up to interpretation and is liberally applied. Technically speaking, intentionality isn't specifically defined in the rules but right, refs will usually give the QB the benefit of the doubt if a ball is thrown to a spot in the field that clearly looks like he was trying to hit a guy who zigged when he was supposed to zag.

It's a value judgment; if you want the refs to "change", that's fine but it would be a point of emphasis, not necessarily a rule change.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Mark Davis wanted the Tom Brady era Patriots and got the Mac Jones era Patriots.

What it really looks like to me is that the Gruden era Raiders had kind of lucked their way into a record with the interim guy and then the new guys jumped in and instead of accepting that it was indeed a fluke, they decided it was for real and broke the bank for, first, a top-level WR and then, when the offense couldn't get it going with him (which, I think David Carr is a perfectly OK quarterback), a new guy who'd had lots of success in the the Shanahan system. I don't even think Jimmy G is that bad, although he's definitely not a game-changer, but that's the issue... there is nothing on this team that is really worth much of anything and while yes, the coach had to go, this was all as much due to the GM.

[GeoWar]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

What it really looks like to me is that the Gruden era Raiders had kind of lucked their way into a record with the interim guy and then the new guys jumped in and instead of accepting that it was indeed a fluke, they decided it was for real and broke the bank for, first, a top-level WR and then, when the offense couldn't get it going with him (which, I think David Carr is a perfectly OK quarterback), a new guy who'd had lots of success in the the Shanahan system. I don't even think Jimmy G is that bad, although he's definitely not a game-changer, but that's the issue... there is nothing on this team that is really worth much of anything and while yes, the coach had to go, this was all as much due to the GM.

It is Derek not David Carr ..... The Raiders want an Offense that will throw the ball deeper opening up the running lanes like old Raider teams ...... That is why Adams, Waller , Henry Ruggs III ** who was sentenced to 3 to 10 years fatal DUI accident ** , Renfro never was a game breaker ---

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Can someone tell me what intentional grounding is? Because it's certainly not how its written in the rulebook.

That rule was nerfed years ago as part of the rule changes made to make things easier for offenses.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by GeoWar

... The Raiders want an Offense that will throw the ball deeper opening up the running lanes like old Raider teams ...... Renfro never was a game breaker ---

Maybe Renfro was to play the Fred Biletnikoff part

[Cobra Mgr]

Why are all the coaches on the sidelines wearing brown pullovers?

What cause is the NFL pretending to care about when we all know it is a means of pushing merchandise?

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Why are all the coaches on the sidelines wearing brown pullovers?

What cause is the NFL pretending to care about when we all know it is a means of pushing merchandise?

They support UPS. I also saw something that might suggest it's military related.

[Cobra Mgr]

How bad do you have to be that even the Chargers don't have to sweat a victory over you?

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

How bad do you have to be that even the Chargers don't have to sweat a victory over you?

I honestly don't know why they keep trotting out Zach Wilson. He's one of the worst QBs I've ever seen start. Even Jamarcus Russel wasn't this bad. I feel bad for the kid. I don't know what his issue is. How was he picked 2nd overall?

On another note, Rodgers is determined to come back. He wants to prove people wrong, and we will see him again this season.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I honestly don't know why they keep trotting out Zach Wilson. He's one of the worst QBs I've ever seen start. Even Jamarcus Russel wasn't this bad. I feel bad for the kid. I don't know what his issue is. How was he picked 2nd overall?

On another note, Rodgers is determined to come back. He wants to prove people wrong, and we will see him again this season.

Jamarcus Russell was MUCH worse.

Third year for Wilson, Russell lasted for three years.

Wilson's completion rate is right at 60%, with a 72 rating. Russell's third year was 48%, with a 60 rating, AND had a higher INT rate.

Not sure I can find a worse QB than Jamarcus, statistically.

Edit. Ryan Leaf. Oh God.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Jamarcus Russell was MUCH worse.

Third year for Wilson, Russell lasted for three years.

Wilson's completion rate is right at 60%, with a 72 rating. Russell's third year was 48%, with a 60 rating, AND had a higher INT rate.

Not sure I can find a worse QB than Jamarcus, statistically.

Edit. Ryan Leaf. Oh God.

I know Russel was bad. Just a flat out bad QB and a bust. But he still had a few moments. Leaf did as well. Zach Wilson just doesn't belong at this level. He's never had a good game that I've seen.

Zach Wilson's completion % is skewed. Anyone that watches him play knows it's around 20%. He just throws 10 check downs at the end of the game when it doesn't matter, and the D doesn't care.

Johnny Manzeil was probably worse.

[thehef]

Akili Smith has to rank right there with Russell and Leaf as the worst QB's of all time. Sure, some guys were probably worse, but you gotta save the top spots on the worst list for guys who not only stunk, but who were high & therefore wasted draft picks. So a guy like Nathan Peterman, who may be just as bad as the guys mentioned above, doesn't get the same consideration because as a fifth-round pick, we weren't exactly expecting the 2nd coming...

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by thehef

Akili Smith has to rank right there with Russell and Leaf as the worst QB's of all time. Sure, some guys were probably worse, but you gotta save the top spots on the worst list for guys who not only stunk, but who were high & therefore wasted draft picks. So a guy like Nathan Peterman, who may be just as bad as the guys mentioned above, doesn't get the same consideration because as a fifth-round pick, we weren't exactly expecting the 2nd coming...

Good point. However, using this same logic, some QBs can be considered a bust just because they didn't meet expectations. But aren't necessarily the worst ever. I'm trying to remove that mindset and just go by how they play.

Zach Wilson right now is playing worse than Cowboys backup Cooper Rush ever played. And he can't find a team to pick him up except for the Cowboys. That's pretty bad. Wilson is below Tim Tebow level bad.

[Cobra Mgr]

Tebow was the worst I ever saw. Threw bounce passes Chris Paul would be proud of.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Zach Wilson right now is playing worse than Cowboys backup Cooper Rush ever played. And he can't find a team to pick him up except for the Cowboys. That's pretty bad. Wilson is below Tim Tebow level bad.

Tebow was not a pretty passer, not by any stretch. But in a side-by-side comparison of stats, Tebow looks better than Jamarcus, Akili, Leaf, and Manziel. Part of that is Tebow's ability to run (plus a lower interception rate). And while W/L record is certainly a team statistic, his - in comparison to the others' - can't be ovelooked. And TT was able to accomplish two things that none of the other four were: Lead his team to a playoff berth, and play a key role in winning one.

(Surprisingly to me, Wilson's stats don't look as bad as the other three when compared to Tebow...)

Again, Tebow wasn't a great passer. But he did had some skills - including leadership - and there was never any questioning that he gave it his all. Whereas with the other four, while there was never a question about skillset, there were definitely questions about committment, maturity, focus (off the field stuff), and whatever other questions go to what's between the ears.

I guess I'd put it this way: If I had to win a game and had to choose between, say, a 23-year old Tebow, Leaf, Smith, Manziel, or Russell, I'd take Tebow in a heartbeat. Not that I'd feel good about it, but compared to the others at least I'd know that he would be singularly focused on doing his best to win the game, and leading his teammates.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by thehef

Tebow was not a pretty passer, not by any stretch. But in a side-by-side comparison of stats, Tebow looks better than Jamarcus, Akili, Leaf, and Manziel. Part of that is Tebow's ability to run (plus a lower interception rate). And while W/L record is certainly a team statistic, his - in comparison to the others' - can't be ovelooked. And TT was able to accomplish two things that none of the other four were: Lead his team to a playoff berth, and play a key role in winning one.

(Surprisingly to me, Wilson's stats don't look as bad as the other three when compared to Tebow...)

Again, Tebow wasn't a great passer. But he did had some skills - including leadership - and there was never any questioning that he gave it his all. Whereas with the other four, while there was never a question about skillset, there were definitely questions about committment, maturity, focus (off the field stuff), and whatever other questions go to what's between the ears.

I guess I'd put it this way: If I had to win a game and had to choose between, say, a 23-year old Tebow, Leaf, Smith, Manziel, or Russell, I'd take Tebow in a heartbeat. Not that I'd feel good about it, but compared to the others at least I'd know that he would be singularly focused on doing his best to win the game, and leading his teammates.

I would take Tebow too. But he was still bad.

Forget Zach Wilson stats. Stats can be deceiving. Go by what you see, not by what you read. Zach got sacked 8 times last game. Six of those eight sacks he held the ball for over 4 seconds. That's not an offensive line issue. The few passes he completed over 10 yards he had to break out of the pocket. Giving him even more time. Most completions he throws from the pocket are check downs. This is not what you normally see from an NFL QB. Not even bad NFL QBs.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Tebow was the worst I ever saw. Threw bounce passes Chris Paul would be proud of.

I agree with you. But he was still miles ahead of Zach Wilson. As bad as Tebow was, it doesn't come close.

[low]

You guys remember Heath Shuler?