Anyone still not purchased yet...

[Ksyrup]

I haven't read this entire thread (most of it), so forgive me if this has been mentioned/questioned and responded to and I didn't see it, but regarding the real roster issue, I'm not sure I understand why the real rosters had/have to be an "outside job"?

This game is fully customizable and editable, and the team names and such are already in the game (and are editable anyway), so why couldn't the real players' ratings have been done in-house and those players given fake names, which the community could then edit to be the real player names? At the least, I bet that within 48 hours of release, someone would have gone through the trouble of editing the names and saving a template that people could use as a start. And after that, I'm sure that people would have then gone on to create an actual set of game files that could be used generally (if there's even a difference between a template and what people are working on right now).

Was this an issue of manpower among the people working on this game? Some legal issue I'm not aware of (in fact, I thought the intellectual property issue was decided against MLB, not for it)? No one with the expertise willing to be an "independent contractor" of SI in order to coordinate completion of the rosters for integration into the release?

I must be missing something, because as big of an issue as this is for some people (and I must stress that it is NOT an issue for me AT ALL - I likely will never play this game using the 2007 rosters, if/when they are completed), I find it hard to understand why at least "fake" real rosters weren't included with the game.

Again, if this has been discussed, I apologize for bringing it up again.

[Veracity]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

If you want the game to have accurate rating for real players than OOTP has to change it ways how to edit.

I want to see where you can just enter the stats of the ball players and ootp comes up with the true rating for that player.

Right now its backwards in how it does it.

Hasn't that always been the dream, to have a baseball sim that translated stats into ratings on-the-fly? -- not just once but continually, so that as the RL player got better/worse the player in the game would rise/decline right along with him. That's what I always thought the grail was.

[Ksyrup]

Wouldn't it be a problem to translate stats to rating "on the fly," since then, ratings would be tied to a small sample size? If a superstar goes 0-20, is he suddenly a scrub? And which should be driving the other? Do great stats translate to great ratings, or is it vice versa?

IMO, stats-to-ratings should be limited to establishing a baseline for a player - an import from a database, or possibly for creating a player of X ability. From there, it should be the development of the player that affects his stats, with the obvious small peaks and valleys where a great hitter can perform poorly for a short period or vice versa.

If you're talking about "re-assessing" a RL player every year to change how he performs in the game, I think that's what the 1-year recalc option is supposed to offer. And that's not something I'm interested in, frankly. I want there to be some variable to ratings/performance based on simulating the player's development due to injuries, the team he's on, whether he's used properly, and good old fashion "unknowns."

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I haven't read this entire thread (most of it), so forgive me if this has been mentioned/questioned and responded to and I didn't see it, but regarding the real roster issue, I'm not sure I understand why the real rosters had/have to be an "outside job"?

This game is fully customizable and editable, and the team names and such are already in the game (and are editable anyway), so why couldn't the real players' ratings have been done in-house and those players given fake names, which the community could then edit to be the real player names? At the least, I bet that within 48 hours of release, someone would have gone through the trouble of editing the names and saving a template that people could use as a start. And after that, I'm sure that people would have then gone on to create an actual set of game files that could be used generally (if there's even a difference between a template and what people are working on right now).

Was this an issue of manpower among the people working on this game? Some legal issue I'm not aware of (in fact, I thought the intellectual property issue was decided against MLB, not for it)? No one with the expertise willing to be an "independent contractor" of SI in order to coordinate completion of the rosters for integration into the release?

I must be missing something, because as big of an issue as this is for some people (and I must stress that it is NOT an issue for me AT ALL - I likely will never play this game using the 2007 rosters, if/when they are completed), I find it hard to understand why at least "fake" real rosters weren't included with the game.

Again, if this has been discussed, I apologize for bringing it up again.

This is 100% true, ncaa does it in their football games since you can't have college football players in a game. People edit just the names after the game is released. NOTHING is stopping SI or Markus from including real rosters with fake names. There is no legality issue with having rosters in which the Tribe has a huge lefty named DD Sabath with CC's actual career stats, contract info, etc. I'd like to hear why they DON'T do this now? Or a commitment that they WILL do it for 2008. It's very easy for them now to say "hey we gave the game to the roster makers in December"

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Go Tribe

NOTHING is stopping SI or Markus from including real rosters with fake names. There is no legality issue with having rosters in which the Tribe has a huge lefty named DD Sabath with CC's actual career stats, contract info, etc.

Yes, there is. MLB considers the statistics themselves to be propietary and under their copyright; that's they why they are taking fantasy sports companies to the courts. Now, MLB lost the first round, but its a long way from being considered legal. Including Lahman could well be illegal.

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Yes, there is. MLB considers the statistics themselves to be propietary and under their copyright; that's they why they are taking fantasy sports companies to the courts. Now, MLB lost the first round, but its a long way from being considered legal. Including Lahman could well be illegal.

the mlb considers the stats AND the associated names as proprietary. take out the names and you have numbers. besides there is legal precedent AGAINST the mlb in this (with Motorolla and the NBA). Stats are facts and facts aren't proprietary - the MLB will lose at every level that they choose to take this to.

that being said, now that there is a ruling, let's see a committment from SI and Markus that, should no further rulings come down in favor of the mlb on this between now and the release of 2008, that they'll have real rosters with fake names. if they do this and the courts rule in favor of mlb AFTER the game is released, they are not allowed to go after SI because the law was clear upon release - no retroactive lawsuits.

honestly it's embarassing that they don't have rosters available yet, especially after last year - they are missing out on sales whether they want to admit it or not. make sure more people are involved with the rosters and make it much easier to make a roster set - from reading some of the roster maker's comments, it appears that oopt is not very user friendly or helpful in making this happen.

sorry for the rant but it still pisses me off

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Go Tribe

the mlb considers the stats AND the associated names as proprietary. take out the names and you have numbers. besides there is legal precedent AGAINST the mlb in this (with Motorolla and the NBA). Stats are facts and facts aren't proprietary - the MLB will lose at every level that they choose to take this to.

Yeah, that's my take. The MLBPA may have an issue on the players' names, but I don't see the MLB winning on the numbers issue.

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Yeah, that's my take. The MLBPA may have an issue on the players' names, but I don't see the MLB winning on the numbers issue.

they are using the "publicity" angle - the players own their names, likeness and stats - take out the names and there is no publicity.

[Cardinal Rule]

Originally Posted by Go Tribe

that being said, now that there is a ruling, let's see a committment from SI and Markus that, should no further rulings come down in favor of the mlb on this between now and the release of 2008, that they'll have real rosters with fake names.

While I agree in theory with your take, I also would point out what that kind of committment would take for SI to put into OOTP. I can't say for sure, but the kind of committment for an individual or group to create real rosters with fake names might well require more compensation than just a free copy of the game. Realize if OOTP includes it, they have a responsibility to support it and that means the creator(s) need to be committed to meet the deadlines set by SI as well as be available after the release to address questions and issues. Would you expect someone to do that for $35?

If SI compensated someone to do this, it would increase their costs to produce the game. Would the potential of increased sales offset their increased cost? If they have to raise the price of the game, the sales volume could decline, costing them top-line revenue and possibly bottom-line revenue (profit) as well. Losing top-line revenue but making the same profit will cause the bean-counters to argue against it, since top-line is what is needed to keep the costs covered. With less cash the fixed costs get tougher to cover. Losing bottom-line profit as well would probably be the death knell of the game.

I'm not saying I don't want real-life rosters in some form, but we can't demand it from SI without understanding it most definitely entails an economic decision that likely won't ever happen without a strong potential to increase cash income and profit. That potential might be there, but if it's not I for one won't blame SI for not going down that path.

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

While I agree in theory with your take, I also would point out what that kind of committment would take for SI to put into OOTP. I can't say for sure, but the kind of committment for an individual or group to create real rosters with fake names might well require more compensation than just a free copy of the game. Realize if OOTP includes it, they have a responsibility to support it and that means the creator(s) need to be committed to meet the deadlines set by SI as well as be available after the release to address questions and issues. Would you expect someone to do that for $35?

If SI compensated someone to do this, it would increase their costs to produce the game. Would the potential of increased sales offset their increased cost? If they have to raise the price of the game, the sales volume could decline, costing them top-line revenue and possibly bottom-line revenue (profit) as well. Losing top-line revenue but making the same profit will cause the bean-counters to argue against it, since top-line is what is needed to keep the costs covered. With less cash the fixed costs get tougher to cover. Losing bottom-line profit as well would probably be the death knell of the game.

I'm not saying I don't want real-life rosters in some form, but we can't demand it from SI without understanding it most definitely entails an economic decision that likely won't ever happen without a strong potential to increase cash income and profit. That potential might be there, but if it's not I for one won't blame SI for not going down that path.

Good points - who makes rosters for other si games? (I'm assuming their other games come with rosters, if not , my bad)

[aphoward]

Originally Posted by eMLBCommish

I suggest if you have an opinion, that you have the facts.

OOTP has never had real rosters come with it.

You can thank your friends of the Mod Squad for those.

And since you're hung up on the rosters are your selling point, you apparently prefer games like MLB 2k7 on a video game console. That's why you still don't get it.

To each their own, of course.

It's just semantics, you obviously knew what I meant and yet continue to try to avoid the topic which I am stating. I have no desire to play a console game based on MLB, that's why I've been playing OOTP this long in the first place, I want the management feel of the game, BUT I want that feel involving players I know and teams that I root for.

Obviously I know the game never actually *came with* real rosters, but they have always been available for it, and that's what I was saying.

I think it's you that doesn't "get it".

[The Wolf]

So what's wrong on starting with 2006 rosters via the Lahman database and then simming a year before you take over? Or are only this year's "real rosters" somehow magical?

Frankly, I don't think very much of this insistence on "real rosters." There are over a hundred baseball seasons available via Lahman, and most of them are better than the current one.

[Zitofan75]

For the love of God, not another "where's the real rosters" rants??!! C'mon guys, this was advertised as NOT having real rosters. No version of OOTP has had them so none of this should be catching anyone by surprise here. All this griping is just a waste of bandwidth. If the company had deceived you then you might have a point but all this does is just fill the board with griping and doesn't get anyone any closer to having these roster sets. Instead of wasting time complaining why not do something useful? Take the time you're on here venting about this and go off and make your own, or get in touch with a rostermaker and offer to help them out. Be part of a solution, not just a whiner.

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

For the love of God, not another "where's the real rosters" rants??!! C'mon guys, this was advertised as NOT having real rosters. No version of OOTP has had them so none of this should be catching anyone by surprise here. All this griping is just a waste of bandwidth. If the company had deceived you then you might have a point but all this does is just fill the board with griping and doesn't get anyone any closer to having these roster sets. Instead of wasting time complaining why not do something useful? Take the time you're on here venting about this and go off and make your own, or get in touch with a rostermaker and offer to help them out. Be part of a solution, not just a whiner.

if SI and Markus had given me the game or the basics of the game in December, I guarantee I would have been done with them by release date.

(I wouldn't have relied on one or two people to get them done, rather I would have assembled a team of at least 6 to 8 people to get them taken care of)

the company didn't deceive me, they just made a seemlingly poor choice in who they trusted to get them done

this thread is about why people haven't purchased yet - more than a few have mentioned real rosters as their reason

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

So what's wrong on starting with 2006 rosters via the Lahman database and then simming a year before you take over? Or are only this year's "real rosters" somehow magical?

Frankly, I don't think very much of this insistence on "real rosters." There are over a hundred baseball seasons available via Lahman, and most of them are better than the current one.

that's great that it's your opinion - but it's just that, an opinion - my opinion is just my opinion.

if the game didn't have lahman and you were a historical simmer type of person, what would you think about people that said "i don't think very much of this insistence on historic rosters, just play fictional".

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by Go Tribe

the company didn't deceive me, they just made a seemlingly poor choice in who they trusted to get them done

Perhaps, but they go with unpaid labor. That's how it is when it's for free. You can guarantee you would've had it done or whatever from December or so but would you have expected compensation? "cause that's something they couldn't give you.

Now if the legal issues are ever resolved to Sega's satisfaction then I imagine real roster sets will become standard. They haven't been though so until then not much else will happen.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Go Tribe

if the game didn't have lahman and you were a historical simmer type of person, what would you think about people that said "i don't think very much of this insistence on historic rosters, just play fictional".

Way too many assumptions in there, Mr. Indians Fan.

And no one ever did answer my simple question about why not take 2006 and then sim forward a year. Hmm.

As to the quote about historical rosters, LOL, the fantasy crowd has posted various versions of that message a lot, see the OOTP 2000 Historical threads.

Commandante Zero, OOTP Historical Liberation Front (retired)

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Nope, sorry wrong again. Most of our forums are free to view with no account needed.

Now, they probably are.

Re-read my posts. At one point, they were not....for a very long time, I will add.

If I could have read the posts, then I would have been fine. All I wanted was to read advice and suggestions on tactics and players.

God knows, I wouldn't have had anything useful to add to the discussion. Heh heh, I know as much about football as the average bloke knows about baseball. Well...a little more, maybe.

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Way too many assumptions in there, Mr. Indians Fan.

And no one ever did answer my simple question about why not take 2006 and then sim forward a year. Hmm.

As to the quote about historical rosters, LOL, the fantasy crowd has posted various versions of that message a lot, see the OOTP 2000 Historical threads.

Commandante Zero, OOTP Historical Liberation Front (retired)

the answer to your question is minor leaguers that haven't played in the bigs won't be in lahman 2006

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

Perhaps, but they go with unpaid labor. That's how it is when it's for free. You can guarantee you would've had it done or whatever from December or so but would you have expected compensation? "cause that's something they couldn't give you.

Now if the legal issues are ever resolved to Sega's satisfaction then I imagine real roster sets will become standard. They haven't been though so until then not much else will happen.

i posted here before that i released the first ever roster overhaul for High Heat a LOOOOONG Time ago - took me hours upon hours and high heat wouldn't let me use excel - i had to do it IN game for every player. i didn't receive nor expect any compensation - just the satisfaction that i was able to help fellow gamers out

anyway, i had my say and will not hijack the thread further