*** OOTP joins Sports Interactive! ***

[Cooker]

I'm a corporate mergers & acquisitions attorney (when I'm not playing OOTP). So I know a few things about mergers.

Corporate mergers of any kind mean changes will occur; usually some weren't even foreseen by the principals when the deal first closed. But that's just life.

Frantic guessing about what'll change and what won't is typical of the employees of any company when its merger is first announced. Rumors fly and fears are rampant. Totally normal.

In the end, though, Markus is smart enough to have accurately assessed the pluses and minuses of affiliating with SI. Let's give Markus credit. He clearly sees this as a good opportunity to improve OOTP (the game) and its marketing and customer base (or otherwise he wouldn't have done the deal).

Yes, there'll be changes. But so what? Change is inevitable and not all change is bad. Every time anything has changed in OOTP in the past (e.g., the DIPS system) we've seen rumors fly and fears become rampant. In the end, though, we've always been well served by Markus and his colleagues. I predict the same will prove true in the future.

Changes will be inevitable; some will be ones that neither the SI folks (very classy for them to assuage our fears here, by the way - VERY classy, indeed!) nor Markus presently even imagine. But, as customers, we either have confidence in Markus as developer of OOTP, or we don't. I, for one, have great confidence in Markus, whatever changes occur. And the SI folks have shown themselves to be people of exceptional good faith and good character during this announcement phase.

Markus has repeatedly shown his good faith dealing with his OOTP customer base. The SI folks admit they don't know baseball. So Markus remains "the man." I look forward to a great future for OOTP as part of the SI family. Some of the inevitable changes will be ones I like; others, I'm sure I won't. But on balance I still believe it'll be a big step forward!

In one way, Markus should accept the great angst expressed here as a huge complement. After all, if people didn't care so deeply and fervently about OOTP, no one would be saying a thing on these boards!

[rdklein]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Klein, you haven't seen what I have seen first-hand. If you had, you wouldn't have posted that.

I couldn't imagine it gets much worse than shoot-outs, stabbing your wife, throwing a girlfriend down the stairs, murdering a pregnant girlfriend, peeing on another fan who supports the opposition, and booing Santa Clause....

... of course, I've heard some f'ed up stories about brit fans and their "passion" for soccer. I'll take your word for it and rescind my last post.

[redmarkYankees]

Of course there have been many disgraceful incidents involving British football fans over the years. Some are even true as reported. Such incidents are much rarer now than they were 20 years ago, but they still happen on occasion.

As in most other societies, there are problems of violence amongst young men, often fuelled by alcohol and in many cases racism and overly strident nationalism. In Britain this is often linked to football to a greater extent than in other countries.

To condemn all Brits as the same, however, is of course ridiculous. If we were to look deeper and compare crime rates, gun crime and murder rates one could make all sorts of sweeping generalisations about US society, too.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by rdklein
As long as my players aren't going on the DL because of tooth decay, I'm cool with it.

Just remember the "pitch" is a thrown ball... not a field of grass.

It is sad to say that Americans like rdklein give Americans a bad name. Fortunately, all of us are not that way.

There are better and more tactful ways to "light a fire under someone".

The British people are our good and faithful allies and a great nation and deserve more respect than you are giving them.

It is written in a Great Book:

"I will keep my mouth with a bridle" and "a gentle answer turns away wrath".

I hope you consider them and make them part of your life.

Your life will be better and you will get along better with people.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by rdklein
... of course, I've heard some f'ed up stories about brit fans and their "passion" for soccer. I'll take your word for it and rescind my last post.

Good idea. So far no groups of American sports fans have ever put on ski masks at a game and then begun murdering the opposing fans and dancing on their corpses.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Eugene Church
It is written in a Great Book:

"I will keep my mouth with a bridle" and "a gentle answer turns away wrath".

Bah.

"And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." - Isaiah 63:5

[digi]

Not yet, but we do have fans who run on the baseball field and attack the first base coaches or players who beat up groundskeepers, etc.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by redmarkYankees
To condemn all Brits as the same, however, is of course ridiculous.

Excuse me? Condemning Brits sports fans for the behavior of British sports fans is nothing but TOTALLY appropriate.

If we were to look deeper and compare crime rates, gun crime and murder rates one could make all sorts of sweeping generalisations about US society, too.

This is a really shabby debating trick known as a "red herring," which is employed by people trying desperately to change the subject. We are talking about the very bad and well-documented behavior of the British sports community - not of all Brits, and we are certainly not talking about non-sports issues.

We're talking about the Chelsea Underground, Heysel Stadium, the firebombing at Bradford, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The behavior of the British sporting community is an international disgrace, and trying to change the subject won't change that fact.

[Treches]

Originally posted by digi
Not yet, but we do have fans who run on the baseball field and attack the first base coaches or players who beat up groundskeepers, etc.

Not enough. Granted Cantona is actually French, but you get my drift.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by digi
Not yet, but we do have fans who run on the baseball field and attack the first base coaches or players who beat up groundskeepers, etc.

Yes, and did you see the outrage the punches caused? British sport fans, on the other hand, have organized the mass murder of opposing fans. Look up what happened at the European Cup Final at Heysel Stadium sometime.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Good idea. So far no groups of American sports fans have ever put on ski masks at a game and then begun murdering the opposing fans and dancing on their corpses.

If you're being completely literal, neither have English fans.

The reference could be to one of two occasions I'm aware of. One is utterly wrong and the result of disgraceful misreporting (since admitted, though never apologised for) of a disaster caused by official incompetence. The other was deaths caused by a terrace collapsing after crowd violence. Violence yes, murder no. Ski masks and dancing on the corpses is sick nonsense.

I really don't want to get into this 'debate' as there is a level of detail and ignorance which this is not the place for. But your statement is utterly wrong. Certainly not the sort of stuff to take to the SI forums, and you may wish to consider that several British users (who may find your misinterpretation of British sporting events/disasters *somewhat* distasteful) use the OOTP forums without degenerating to sweeping (and disgusting) slurs on other countries.

[Malleus Dei]

A good neutral summary of a small fraction of it can be found here:

http://www.thesportjournal.org/1998J...o1/menaces.asp

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by redmarkYankees
Violence yes, murder no. Ski masks and dancing on the corpses is sick nonsense.

Heysel Stadium, 1985. Look it up, Mister Ignorance.

I really don't want to get into this 'debate' as there is a level of detail and ignorance which this is not the place for.

Yes, and it's all on your part.

without degenerating to sweeping (and disgusting) slurs on other countries.

1. It can't be a "slur" if it's true.
2. I support the U.K. and would gladly fight to defend it if it were invaded/attacked.
3. British sports fans are a disgrace. That doesn't reflect on the entire country, just on the British sports community, and its certainly not a "slur" on the country.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei This is a really shabby debating trick known as a "red herring," which is employed by people trying desperately to change the subject. We are talking about the very bad and well-documented behavior of the British sports community - not of all Brits, and we are certainly not talking about non-sports issues.

We're talking about the Chelsea Underground, Heysel Stadium, the firebombing at Bradford, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The behavior of the British sporting community is an international disgrace, and trying to change the subject won't change that fact. [/B]

I wasn't changing the subject. In the part of my post you didn't quote I acknowledged problems of violence connected to sport, particularly football, in the UK. My point was that violence exists in many societies, the British 'issue' is why it's connected to football to an extent not seen in other countries (though it is to some degree in Germany, Netherlands, Italy and parts of Eastern Europe).

Violence connected to sport is a subset of violence in society. No doubt there are interesting sociological conclusions to be drawn from the association of violence to football in the UK, when UK society as a whole has less violent crime than other societies, including the US. Your original post did not read like the opening of an intersting sociological study of crime in sport vs crime in society, however, merely a rehash of exaggerated diatribe against British football fans.

[Neil Dejyothin]

At the end of the day we are not interested in violence or criminal behaviour or activity that puts a bad name on a sport, association, country, etc.

You will never find such representation in any of our games as we are definitely not keen on promoting any form of hooligism or unacceptable behaviour.

In some of our past titles we have promoted causes of goodwill such as kicking racism out of sport, and had logo screens supporting such a cause appear upon loading the game.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
[B]Heysel Stadium, 1985. Look it up, Mister Ignorance.

I don't need to look it up, I have the eternal disgrace of being a Liverpool supporter to remind me of it, had friends present at the game and watched it, live, on TV.

Liverpool 'fans' started the violence, which infact was fairly limited but admittedly disgraceful. In panic, several thousand fans (mainly 'neutral' Belgian fans at the same 'end' as the Liverpool fans, the game being played at a neutral venue as European Cup finals were) rushed away from the Liverpool fans, towards one corner of the terrace. A wall collapsed, in the stadium which clubs had warned before the game was not upto the standards required. More than forty people died, as a consequence of the collapse and being crushed. They were not stabbed or beaten to death.

Juventus fans were the ones wearing ski masks and invaded the pitch at the far end of the ground, some 200 yards away.

No-one danced on corpses.

Don't presume that in disagreement I wasn't aware of the facts. I am painfully aware of the facts of this case.

"put on ski masks at a game and then begun murdering the opposing fans and dancing on their corpses" are not the facts.

Look it up somewhere reliable.

[Henry]

Ok. This will not be popular, but the discussion here has evolved into the Talk Sports forum - to which it will go.

Henry

[tim_uwrf]

At least we still get:


















+1

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Neil Dejyothin
At the end of the day we are not interested in violence or criminal behaviour or activity that puts a bad name on a sport, association, country, etc.

You will never find such representation in any of our games as we are definitely not keen on promoting any form of hooligism or unacceptable behaviour.

In some of our past titles we have promoted causes of goodwill such as kicking racism out of sport, and had logo screens supporting such a cause appear upon loading the game.

I don't doubt your good will or good intentions...or those of the British nation.

[rdklein]

Originally posted by Treches
Not enough. Granted Cantona is actually French, but you get my drift.

Hey, I think this is something we can all agree on. France Sucks!