2022 MLB Postseason Results (Spoilers!) & MLB.tv

[thehef]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

If he gets a win, why wouldn't it? Even if he gives up 17 and gets a win, it's still a win. Winning is what he hasn't done. So, winning would remove the "he hasn't won" label.

It would - quite factually - remove the label of "he hasn't won." But would it rightly remove the label of "World Series choker," (assuming the label is accurate to begin with)?

Put another way, if Joe Schmoe gives up 4 runs in 5 innings and his team wins, is he clutch, whereas the next day, if Johnny Onspot give up 4 runs in 5 innings and his team loses, did he choke? I mean, if the performances are the same and the only difference was the amount of runs scored by the pitcher's team, how can we say one individual performance was better than the other?

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by thehef

It would - quite factually - remove the label of "he hasn't won." But would it rightly remove the label of "World Series choker," (assuming the label is accurate to begin with)?

Put another way, if Joe Schmoe gives up 4 runs in 5 innings and his team wins, is he clutch, whereas the next day, if Johnny Onspot give up 4 runs in 5 innings and his team loses, did he choke? I mean, if the performances are the same and the only difference was the amount of runs scored by the pitcher's team, how can we say one individual performance was better than the other?

Nope, to the bold. By virtue of being the winning or losing pitcher, one pitcher held the other team to fewer runs than his team scored while other didn't. The amount of runs doesn't matter.

[Westheim]

That was about the 35th time I heard "Just about when you think you've figured this series out, it all changes...!".

Well yes, Bobo. If you didn't try to out-smart the baseball gods, maybe you wouldn't get your feelings hurt so badly...!

[monkeyman576]

A choker is a choker. One game doesn't change the history of your career. I'm sure Verlander will get into the hall regardless though. Lots of players don't even ever play in the postseason.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Tonight may be Verlander's last chance to shed his "WS choke artist" image. If he bombs again, it may be a lock and a permanent tarnish on an otherwise brilliant career. He is 15-5 with a 3.04 ERA in career playoff games -- as long as you remove the World Series outings. In those, he is 0-6, 6.07 ERA.

Well, so far so good through 5 innings, despite the gopher ball he threw to Schwarber. But for maximum effect, the Astros have to hold onto the lead and award him the win. Let's see if he comes out for the sixth.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

Guilt by association. I'm not going to rah rah someone who is managing a team that is involved in a scandle of that magnitude. He knew there were still players on the roster that were involved and that the punishment was far from adequate. He could have taken a different job if he didn't want to be associated.

[Westheim]

I loathe Rafael Montero.......

[Westheim]

Alec Bohm, I think.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Well, so far so good through 5 innings, despite the gopher ball he threw to Schwarber. But for maximum effect, the Astros have to hold onto the lead and award him the win. Let's see if he comes out for the sixth.

Well, he's got the win, thanks to his bullpen and a darned fine catch by McCormick of Realmuto's drive. My verdict, FWIW: Partial vindication for Verlander.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Nope, to the bold. By virtue of being the winning or losing pitcher, one pitcher held the other team to fewer runs than his team scored while other didn't. The amount of runs doesn't matter.

So, by that logic, the guy who goes 8 innings and gives up a run in 1-0 loss did not give as good a performance as the guy who goes 6 innings, leaves with a 6-5 lead and the bases loaded, and watches his bullpen save it for him. OK, sure...

[thehef]

Tonight's was really a game of inches on several key plays. Among them were two plays at first (both in the 8th inning) that likely decided the game:

- a sharp grounder snagged by the BlackStros' Mancini, saving two runs*
- a spinning bouncer that the Phils' Hoskins wasn't able to handle, allowing a key run to score

*and apparently salvaging Verlander's reputation, according to some...

Speaking of Hoskins, what a brutal game. Tonight's was the first game of the series where I watched more than an inning here or there. I saw all of his at-bats except his fly out in the 1st, and I'm trying to recall if I saw him swing at a strike or take a ball. Just terrible at-bats... And to "boot" he kicked that grounder ... not scored an error, but a play needed to be made.

[WestCoastGuy]

I lost all respect for Dusty Baker when immediately upon taking the job, he repeatedly said that everybody just needs to move on, his players don't deserve to be booed, just acting all confused and annoyed why his team was receiving the response that it was.

[MikeS369]

Originally Posted by WestCoastGuy

I lost all respect for Dusty Baker when immediately upon taking the job, he repeatedly said that everybody just needs to move on, his players don't deserve to be booed, just acting all confused and annoyed why his team was receiving the response that it was.

You do need to move on. First of all "sign stealing" is not against MLB regulations and every MLB team does it. Not as big of deal today with PitchCom.

What is against the regulations is using electronic equipment to aid in the process. The Astros are not the only team to have been penalized for this. Don't forget the Red Sox and Yankees.

And lets not forget the hacking of the computers of the Astros by the Cardinals. Someone in that case was actually convicted of a crime.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by thehef

So, by that logic, the guy who goes 8 innings and gives up a run in 1-0 loss did not give as good a performance as the guy who goes 6 innings, leaves with a 6-5 lead and the bases loaded, and watches his bullpen save it for him. OK, sure...

Ultimately, that's correct, even if not statistically (meaning the guy who gave up 5 won't have as nice of stats as the guy who only gave up 1). I'd take a 6-5 win over a 1-0 loss any day of the week. Would you rather have a 1-0 loss than a 6-5 win?

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Ultimately, that's correct, even if not statistically (meaning the guy who gave up 5 won't have as nice of stats as the guy who only gave up 1). I'd take a 6-5 win over a 1-0 loss any day of the week. Would you rather have a 1-0 loss than a 6-5 win?

I'd rather have a 1-0 loss, as that will lead to more wins over the long term. Obviously if this is happening over and over, this says something about your offense more than the pitcher.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Ultimately, that's correct, even if not statistically (meaning the guy who gave up 5 won't have as nice of stats as the guy who only gave up 1). I'd take a 6-5 win over a 1-0 loss any day of the week. Would you rather have a 1-0 loss than a 6-5 win?

Yep, I'm not contesting the choice of taking a 1-0 loss over a 6-5 win. Nobody would**, especially in a World Series game. I'm saying that if those were both big games, the guy who took the 1-0 loss really came through with a clutch performance but was felled by bad luck, going up against some combination of a great pitching performance and lousy hitting, whereas the guy who got the win in the 6-5 game clearly didn't come through anywhere near to the degree of the other guy. He just got lucky; with his less-than-mediocre performance merely getting him the W due to a combination of two things that were ENTIRELY out of his control: 1) the other pitcher was worse, and 2) his hitters coming through with 6 runs rather than any number under 5... and to another factor that was mostly out of his control: his manager decided not to pull him prior to the 5 innings mark.

** I understand monkeyman's perspective, looking at the long game. I'm referring to a clutch - or non-clutch - performance in an important game

I understand your argument re the 6-5 winner, where "he did what needed to do" whereas the 1-0 loser did not. But it's the "what he needed to do" part that is largely out of the pitcher's control, and therefore doesn't really factor in, IMO... The 6-5 loser - as he's pitching through the early innings, giving up runs, has no idea how many runs he can allow... Just like the 1-0 loser doesn't know ahead of time that he has to throw a shutout just to get to extra innings...

Look at it this way: Let's say that both the 6-5 win and 1-0 loss were early in a World Series, you are the manager, and you have the option of starting the 6-5 loser or the 1-0 winner in a deciding game 7. Rest is not a concern, and all other factors being even. The only difference is how they pitched earlier in the series. Who are you gonna go with?

The choice is clear to me. But if you're choice is the 6-5 winner because you feel in your gut that he's just plain lucky, that's fair. In this example, though, I don't think there's enough info to come to that conclusion.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by MikeS369

And lets not forget the hacking of the computers of the Astros by the Cardinals.

If I'm not mistaken, the hacking cases were pretty similar to what the BlackStros did - using technology to cheat. It's the technology part that was clearly wrong and prohibited. The chasm - between that, and a runner on 2nd base being able to see signs and relay them to the hitter - cannot be described due to its vastness...

Originally Posted by MikeS369

Someone in that case was actually convicted of a crime.

Glad you brought up that key difference. I'm not saying what the BlackStros did was criminal, but at least in the Cardinals case there was punishment that was in the ballpark of fitting the crime (the guy went to prison & was banned from the game for life; the Cards had to directly compensate the victims - Houston - by giving them cash and draft picks). The same - punishment fitting the crime - cannot be credibly said of Houston's players, since they faced no punishment at all, nor Houston's organization, since they received merely a financial slap on the wrist and kept the trophy (all thanks to puzzy Manfred).

[Amazin69]

Wow, such an awesome performance from Verlander!

He "made it through five innings!" (Smoltz)
He "got through the lineup and turned a lead over to the bullpen" (Ken Rosenthal)

Pardon me while I vomit.

("One More Day to Liberation…" [/Les Mis])

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Wow, such an awesome performance from Verlander!

He "made it through five innings!" (Smoltz)
He "got through the lineup and turned a lead over to the bullpen" (Ken Rosenthal)

Pardon me while I vomit.

("One More Day to Liberation…" [/Les Mis])

Well, it was better than what he had been doing in the World Series limelight!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Wow, such an awesome performance from Verlander!

He "made it through five innings!" (Smoltz)
He "got through the lineup and turned a lead over to the bullpen" (Ken Rosenthal)

Pardon me while I vomit.

("One More Day to Liberation…" [/Les Mis])

I turned the volume to zero.