Questionable AI decisions

[Dyzalot]

Here's the very next game. Keep in mind these have been games 1,2 & 3 of the World Series. OK so the Twins scored 6 runs in the top of the 1st and the Pirates have come back to tie it up after 7. So the Pirates bring in a lefty to face my lefty loaded lineup. AI pinch hits with a righty outfielder for a righty outfielder, ok. Then it doesn't pinch hit for the lefty catcher. Well ok, he isn't horrible against lefties so I can accept that, for now. Then it pinch hits for Mauer, the lefty first baseman with a righty first baseman, Aguilar. Then it doesn't pinch hit for Sanchez here against a lefty. Like in what universe would you pinch hit when ahead and a runner on 1st but not pinch hit when tied and runners on 1st and 2nd. Then look what it does in the top of the eighth. The AI performs a double switch and "wastes" my backup right handed hitting catcher instead of pinch hitting with him earlier either for Jhang or even better, Sanchez. Bug? Just AI can't be sophisticated enough to solve this logically? Am I asking for too much, wait ten years?

[Rain King]

Definitely seems like there is a disconnect between the usage of defensive replacements at catcher and the pinch hitting logic. Can probably be improved, don't think it is a vast injustice though considering this type of MLB roster dynamic is pretty rare and I'm guessing Markus has tried to model the typical #1/#2 MLB catcher dynamic, particularly if there are only 2 on the roster. It is probably something that can be posted in the bug forum though.

*Edit* - I just want to add that there really isn't such a thing as bringing in a catcher as a defensive replacement in real life MLB.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Definitely seems like there is a disconnect between the usage of defensive replacements at catcher and the pinch hitting logic. Can probably be improved, don't think it is a vast injustice though considering this type of MLB roster dynamic is pretty rare and I'm guessing Markus has tried to model the typical #1/#2 MLB catcher dynamic, particularly if there are only 2 on the roster. It is probably something that can be posted in the bug forum though.

*Edit* - I just want to add that there really isn't such a thing as bringing in a catcher as a defensive replacement in real life MLB.

The Twins in the posted example do have the typical #1/#2 catcher dynamic, unless you are counting Mauer who has no rating at catcher, just some raw skill because he hasn't played there in several years, in this game.

[Rain King]

You just said that there is a platoon, maybe you were referring to something else but I thought you were referencing that Twins team. Either way, teams don't tend to replace the starting catcher in an MLB game unless it is an injury related issue or an extended extra-inning situation (i.e. the backup catcher is pinch-hitting for a pitcher when there are no other position players left).

I don't necessarily agree with that usage, I think teams could make a lot better use of their backup catcher...but that isn't the reality.

[Dyzalot]

Game 5 of the World Series...

[Rain King]

Again, the unrealistic part IMO is that a team is using a catcher in a defensive replacement capacity.

I do agree, however, that if a catcher is going to enter a game in that capacity that it would be an improvement to consider that in the pinch-hitting logic.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Again, the unrealistic part IMO is that a team is using a catcher in a defensive replacement capacity.

I do agree, however, that if a catcher is going to enter a game in that capacity that it would be an improvement to consider that in the pinch-hitting logic.

The AI is doing it as part of a double switch. I don't have Hernandez set up as the late inning defensive replacement.

[Rain King]

I guess I wish you would be more clear exactly what part of each of these AI moves you are objecting to. Earlier you specifically brought up a catcher defensive replacement, but now you say that isn't how it is set up. Late inning AI is complicated and you are muddying the details IMO.

We should probably be able to see the depth chart setup or something.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I guess I wish you would be more clear exactly what part of each of these AI moves you are objecting to. Earlier you specifically brought up a catcher defensive replacement, but now you say that isn't how it is set up. Late inning AI is complicated and you are muddying the details IMO.

We should probably be able to see the depth chart setup or something.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend. There are several things going on. The logic of when to and when not to pinch hit for Sanchez, the best defensive 2nd baseman on the team. There is also a logic problem with catcher use when assuming what was argued earlier in this thread that the reason the AI wasn't pinch hitting with the platooned righty catcher when the lefty starter was facing a lefty is because the AI is loathe to use the backup catcher. If that is the case then why is it subsequently being used as part of a double switch a half inning after all of the pinch hitting went on. Also the scores of the game and whether or not there should even be any pinch hitting going on.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot that you need to look at the defensive replacements at the start of the next half inning as it brings in the backup infielder and puts him at third where he has very little experience and moves the starting experienced third baseman to second.

[Dyzalot]

Game 6 of the World Series Buxton, the starting center fielder gets injured. Lefty starter still in the game. Look at the replacement.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Here's the very next game. Keep in mind these have been games 1,2 & 3 of the World Series. OK so the Twins scored 6 runs in the top of the 1st and the Pirates have come back to tie it up after 7. So the Pirates bring in a lefty to face my lefty loaded lineup. AI pinch hits with a righty outfielder for a righty outfielder, ok. Then it doesn't pinch hit for the lefty catcher. Well ok, he isn't horrible against lefties so I can accept that, for now. Then it pinch hits for Mauer, the lefty first baseman with a righty first baseman, Aguilar. Then it doesn't pinch hit for Sanchez here against a lefty. Like in what universe would you pinch hit when ahead and a runner on 1st but not pinch hit when tied and runners on 1st and 2nd. Then look what it does in the top of the eighth. The AI performs a double switch and "wastes" my backup right handed hitting catcher instead of pinch hitting with him earlier either for Jhang or even better, Sanchez. Bug? Just AI can't be sophisticated enough to solve this logically? Am I asking for too much, wait ten years?

Wouldn't this be more of a case of MGR settings for pinch hitting / RP for various situations vs some bug?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Game 6 of the World Series Buxton, the starting center fielder gets injured. Lefty starter still in the game. Look at the replacement.

Post the defense of the rest of the OF. Cozens has the most range. not saying he was the best choice since he has no CF rating but who else was better? OOTP has improved in 16 in defensive replacements and have even seen it move a RF to CF and brought in a def RF who can only play RF.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Game

Post the defense of the rest of the OF. Cozens has the most range. not saying he was the best choice since he has no CF rating but who else was better? OOTP has improved in 16 in defensive replacements and have even seen it move a RF to CF and brought in a def RF who can only play RF.

Well I posted my depth chart above which is what it should follow, right? Here is the guy I had slated as the backup CF against lefties. Also, Springer was in right and could have moved to center when Cozens was brought in..

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Game

Wouldn't this be more of a case of MGR settings for pinch hitting / RP for various situations vs some bug?

I just have the preset "sabermetric" set for in game manager strategy.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I was never convinced that Stapleton was better defensively than Buckner. And I would charge that none of those are as bad as pinch hitting for your two best defensive players late in the game with a lead.

Really? That play essentially swung a World Series.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yeah but was there ever a situation where he should move? Like did they ever replace the first baseman with a guy who could play both first and third but put the guy at first and left Miggy at third?

"Was there ever a situation where he should have moved?"

Yes, essentially every time Prince Fielder played and would no longer be hitting. In most of those cases, instead, you would see Don Kelly as the defensive replacement for Cabrera.

The proof that disputes almost all of this thread... ladies and gentlemen, may I present:

Jim Leyland



Go read through some of old Smokes' game logs... and watch his protege Ausmus sometime...

OOTP does just fine.

[jaysdailydose]

Just poking some fun... obviously, you're on to some stuff here, as has been acknowledged by the devs.

The reason you caught some heat is because you posted some totally legit baseball plays. Like the Cutch running on Puig scenario, for instance.

Now, the stuff with the pitcher batting in the 9th and then being removed before pitching the bottom of the 9th... I will say that there are probably still scenarios from the history of the game where its happened. Not in the modern game (you have to remember, that parts of the game have to be balanced for historical play as well) -- but I guarantee its happened without looking through box scores.

Look at a pitcher like Mike Hampton in his prime, for instance. He might have been a stronger hitter than someone on the bench. Also, even though pitchers are generally regarded as "sure outs" today, it doesn't mean that the manager is just giving up the inning.

I could see having a 1-2 run lead and if I could get a run, staying with the starter, and if we didn't get a run, going to my closer. Or in the case where I've got my ace, maybe I'm looking to keep my best guy on the mound and then we get a few runs and I choose to take him out.

In the modern game, I'd have never anticipated Madison Bumgarner throwing 5 innings from the bullpen in the World Series -- but it happened.

Also, one thing I will say is this... your manager can definitely have a different view of the ratings/stats than you do, and maybe in your IF/2B example, your manager saw different ratings.than you did. Also, major league managers play hunches -- that is why I pointed out Jim Leyland in the post before. We could never figure out why he was playing Donnie Kelly Baby or Ryan Raburn day after day with better options, but dammit, Smokes loved his guys and he played hunches.

Gotta leave room for that in a baseball sim.

I think you might oughta fire your manager. It's football, but Bum Phillips said it best... "There's two kinds of coaches, them that's fired, and them that's gonna be fired."

[Dyzalot]

How do I fire myself?

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

How do I fire myself?

Hire an ai manager?

[jaysdailydose]

I did notice in prior versions that if I had myself as the only manager, and didn't adjust the majority of strategy, I'd have some wonky things happen.

Now, I would chalk it up to an unproven manager if you are in GM+manager. Not saying this is it... but could be.