Questionable AI decisions

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

Cabrera doesn't move. Look at his defensive GP and GS and CG on baseball reference. He comes out of games which I hope we agree is what we should see in OOTP.

Miguel Cabrera Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

For example the last time Cabrera was a full time 3B he did not play 1 inning at 1B. The previous year to that, he played 3 innings.

Player movement in MLB is less than people think.

Yeah but was there ever a situation where he should move? Like did they ever replace the first baseman with a guy who could play both first and third but put the guy at first and left Miggy at third?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yeah but was there ever a situation where he should move? Like did they ever replace the first baseman with a guy who could play both first and third but put the guy at first and left Miggy at third?

Why would that matter? The data is freely available and not made up. If you feel something else is happening show the data to support the argument.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

Why would that matter?

Because that is the crux of the argument. I'm not looking for the OOTP AI to move Miggy to first just because the first baseman is replaced. It only makes sense if he is replaced by someone who can play third (presumably better than Cabrera).

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yeah but was there ever a situation where he should move? Like did they ever replace the first baseman with a guy who could play both first and third but put the guy at first and left Miggy at third?

2012 Miggy played a whopping total of 3 innings at 1B. 2013 he didn't play 1B at all. You have to remember Fielder was there and until last year the guy was pretty invincible health wise. Now last year, Miggy played 10 games at 3B. These would have been interleague games. He would move to 3B so they could get Victor Martinez's bat in the lineup.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Because that is the crux of the argument. I'm not looking for the OOTP AI to move Miggy to first just because the first baseman is replaced. It only makes sense if he is replaced by someone who can play third (presumably better than Cabrera).

No I think you are arguing for no reason. Cabrera doesn't move. Most players don't. The data is clear and OOTP should do its best to replicate that.

If you think it should work differently show the data to support it.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

No I think you are arguing for no reason. Cabrera doesn't move. Most players don't. The data is clear and OOTP should do its best to replicate that.

If you think it should work differently show the data to support it.

Why don't you show some data that Cabrera doesn't move when a better defensive option is brought in at third base? The data you showed is deceptive since it doesn't have the correct context. No one is arguing that the AI should move players just because and yet that's what your data is in the context of. I guarantee you that if Brock Holt starts a game at shortstop and Pedroia gets hurt so the Sox bring in Bogaerts, he isn't going to second. He will go to short and Holt will move to second.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Why don't you show some data that Cabrera doesn't move when a better defensive option is brought in at third base? The data you showed is deceptive since it doesn't have the correct context. No one is arguing that the AI should move players just because and yet that's what your data is in the context of. I guarantee you that if Brock Holt starts a game at shortstop and Pedroia gets hurt so the Sox bring in Bogaerts, he isn't going to second. He will go to short and Holt will move to second.

You are being deliberately obtuse. That's what the data shows. Cabrera doesn't move when replaced at 3B.\

See post 159.

For example the last time Cabrera was a full time 3B he did not play 1 inning at 1B.

I think I'll bow out of this now. You seem to be unable to follow anything I'm saying.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

You are being deliberately obtuse. That's what the data shows. Cabrera doesn't move when replaced at 3B.\

See post 159.


I think I'll bow out of this now. You seem to be unable to follow anything I'm saying.

I think you are the one being obtuse. You are taking a general statistic and trying to apply it to a specific situation. It would be like looking at the overall bunting stats for MLB and then concluding something from that in reference to using the squeeze bunt.

[Dyzalot]

Lefty removed at beginning of inning for a righty to face a righty. Gives up a hit and is then removed for a lefty to face the lefty up. He faces a lefty and a switch hitter and then is removed for a righty to face the next lefty. He gets him out and then is replaced by a lefty to replace the switch hitter coming up. WTF is up with all of the pitching changes?

[Dyzalot]

Inexplicable pitching change for a guy who gets a save if he finishes the game in an 11-1 blowout in the playoffs. Shreve had pitched the game before as seen in my post above which was from the game before this one so it wasn't like the AI was trying to get him work.

[Leo_The_Lip]

Originally Posted by RchW

Showalter is considered a managerial genius by many people. He is, in fact, choosing offense over defense which is a core part of the OOTP "best batting lineup" design.

RichW, this does not make any sense to me, and I truly don't comprehend what you are driving at here.

This is the initial lineup for the game, not one made later. I get the offense part. The issue is, having decided on the 9 best hitters, the decision to choose a sub-optimal defensive scheme is bizarre. How does "best batting lineup" impact defensive deployment in this case? Pearce should have a better chance of staying in the game as the DH where a defensive move decision would not ever come into play.

This example is not about bringing players off the bench, it is all about "now that I have my batting order, how are these players best deployed?"

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

RichW, this does not make any sense to me, and I truly don't comprehend what you are driving at here.

This is the initial lineup for the game, not one made later. I get the offense part. The issue is, having decided on the 9 best hitters, the decision to choose a sub-optimal defensive scheme is bizarre. How does "best batting lineup" impact defensive deployment in this case? Pearce should have a better chance of staying in the game as the DH where a defensive move decision would not ever come into play.

This example is not about bringing players off the bench, it is all about "now that I have my batting order, how are these players best deployed?"

Exactly. I'm glad I'm not the only one was sees this. Nevertheless, I'm glad Matt Arnold specifically commented on this and I hope to continue to post examples that can help aid the development team with optimizing the in-game defensive deployment of the players currently in the lineup [batting order].

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

RichW, this does not make any sense to me, and I truly don't comprehend what you are driving at here.

This is the initial lineup for the game, not one made later. I get the offense part. The issue is, having decided on the 9 best hitters, the decision to choose a sub-optimal defensive scheme is bizarre. How does "best batting lineup" impact defensive deployment in this case? Pearce should have a better chance of staying in the game as the DH where a defensive move decision would not ever come into play.

This example is not about bringing players off the bench, it is all about "now that I have my batting order, how are these players best deployed?"

Not like I know anything, but I did get to wondering about one thing. Steve Pearce also plays the outfield. I wonder if Buck has this in mind when he pencils Pearce in at 2B. If he's the DH, he can't move to the outfield without the all dreaded pitcher batting in the AL

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Lefty removed at beginning of inning for a righty to face a righty. Gives up a hit and is then removed for a lefty to face the lefty up. He faces a lefty and a switch hitter and then is removed for a righty to face the next lefty. He gets him out and then is replaced by a lefty to replace the switch hitter coming up. WTF is up with all of the pitching changes?

This is not a forum where the devs often answer questions. If you think there is a bug report it in the bug thread under technical support and upload your league files. If something is working wrong Markus or the other Devs will address it but only if you report and upload the league files so they can what is happening.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

This is not a forum where the devs often answer questions. If you think there is a bug report it in the bug thread under technical support and upload your league files. If something is working wrong Markus or the other Devs will address it but only if you report and upload the league files so they can what is happening.

I've been hesitant to put all of these that I post here in the bug forum because I don't know if they are bugs and i don't want to inundate that thread with a bunch of non bugs. For most of these, people have responded with what they think are reasonable explanations. Since you have indicated that this is likely a bug, I will post it over there as well.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

This is not a forum where the devs often answer questions. If you think there is a bug report it in the bug thread under technical support and upload your league files. If something is working wrong Markus or the other Devs will address it but only if you report and upload the league files so they can what is happening.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...um-please.html

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...um-please.html

How does one know what is and isn't a bug when talking AI decisions? Many of the things I have posted in this thread have been argued by other members to be "working as intended".

Why do you have to be so mean?

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

How does one know what is and isn't a bug when talking AI decisions? Many of the things I have posted in this thread have been argued by other members to be "working as intended".

Why do you have to be so mean?

Part of the problem is the way in which you are presenting many of these things. Starting off with this is "inexplicable" isn't exactly encouraging discussion. There have been numerous posts from you in this thread where I've started to write a response, but then decided to scrap it because I felt I could predict the response and didn't feel that would head in a productive direction.

Yes, this forum can be rough on threads criticizing the game but that is most often a creation of the attitude of the original post. Also, I think the word bug is a bit harsh when talking about most things you have brought up in this thread. AI code is complicated and there are always tweaks being made by Markus & company so obviously there will always things that can be improved. If we can develop a "let's work on this together" attitude and simply don't engage with those who do not adhere to that mantra we could be more productive.

This a great game we all love or we would not be here, best not to forget about that.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

It should go in the bug forum if you have a bunch of examples of repeatable behavior that seems "off." Certainly it can be helpful to take the pulse of the community to see if other people have an explanation or to check if it's some long-running issue that everyone already knows about. But, and no disrespect to the other forum members here, I don't really care whether they think it's a bug or not. They don't know the code.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Part of the problem is the way in which you are presenting many of these things. Starting off with this is "inexplicable" isn't exactly encouraging discussion. There have been numerous posts from you in this thread where I've started to write a response, but then decided to scrap it because I felt I could predict the response and didn't feel that would head in a productive direction.

Yes, this forum can be rough on threads criticizing the game but that is most often a creation of the attitude of the original post. Also, I think the word bug is a bit harsh when talking about most things you have brought up in this thread. AI code is complicated and there are always tweaks being made by Markus & company so obviously there will always things that can be improved. If we can develop a "let's work on this together" attitude and simply don't engage with those who do not adhere to that mantra we could be more productive.

This a great game we all love or we would not be here, best not to forget about that.

The bolded is part of the point I was making. I wouldn't call perceived "flaws" in the AI "bugs" necessarily. Also I am surprised that someone would think my inclusion of the word "inexplicable" would discourage discussion as I thought it would prompt people to prove me wrong. I will try to use more "vanilla" language in the future.

The other reason I made this thread is because I have brought up some of these issues in the past and always got shot down by the responses of "I've been playing for ten years and never seen this." "Show us screen shots and prove it really happens" etc... So I created this thread and started posting screen shots to prove I wasn't just trying to troll the community as it seemed some were indicating they believed.