Hey, is this tanking, shrewd managing, or just plain unethical?

[ronhatch]

My teams I'm playing with restrictions both got kicked down to rookie league this week... where I noticed this gem. There's two clear tankers in the league, but the other guy is small time compared to this one. Noticed one because I was looking through the rosters in my division, this one turned up when I looked at the manager list for the league and saw 174 tournament wins. (Yes, I've reported both of them.)

[ronhatch]

Incidentally, I had the misfortune of again being in the same league as the team I mentioned previously. Apparently, when warned the decision was made that the profits were high enough already. I'd almost rather see a tanker, since I have basically zero chance of winning in the playoffs against this guy. Oddly enough, I earned somewhere around 75,000 points in a three game series against a completely different team... one that played normally the prior time I faced them and didn't appear to have any reason to tank (was already "safe" from being promoted).

Edit: And yes, this is still Rookie League... with 19 perfect cards on the active roster. 141 wins this season.

[Hwilensky]

Just look at the manager rankings screen, and sort by tournament wins, and look at how some people operate. There are some there that have over 275 tournament wins, but are only in rookie, stone or iron. Do they only know how to build tournament teams and not perfect teams? I think not.

[Fenixdown]

I have a clearcut tanker in my league. He's spent 5 seasons with the team, never made it past Stone, and every other season all of his high level diamond cards must suddenly suffer from the corona virus because they only play a handful of games.

I reported the team as it's just so blatant it's not even funny. Then I came to the forums. I found this thread. I've been reading posts and I've come to two conclusions.

1. OOTP devs say one thing and mean something else. Yeah, devs, I'm looking at you. My guess is your ultimate decision to discipline teams for blatant disregard of the rules is based around the number of dollar signs they've given you. That's the only way to explain how some teams "might" get a ban and it seems some clearly do not get anything at all.

2. The devs don't even know how to police their own game...and are somehow fans of a game that has far stricter policing policies. A warning first? WHAT?!?!?!?!?! You seriously think an e-mail that says "hey! stop that!" is actually going to make people stop that? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You're either a. naive or b. stupid. Baseball doesn't give warnings to people who cheat. They issue fines first. So....that's a warning. Then they start suspensions. Or they do both. If you really wanna drive that message across that cheaters aren't tolerated, this is what you do. A. strip a team/user of EVERY SINGLE LAST PP THEY HAVE ON THEIR ACCOUNT. PERIOD. PURCHASED OR OTHERWISE. You THEN proceed to suspend them from tournament competition. For lengthy periods of time. Not hours. Not days. At LEAST weeks. First offense? 4 week suspension. Second? Double that. Third? You're done. Get out. Don't come back.

TL;DR version : Devs don't care about cheating, but say they do to make us feel better. Cheaters give them money, and they like money. They roll around in it in their spare time.

[Syd Thrift]

We probably don't need the ALL CAPS but I agree that if a player is obviously tanking, all a warning does is it tells them that it's time to use their ill-gotten gains to move up the ladder. I understand the desire to not treat people like they're bad actors until they prove you wrong, but tanking itself is what ruins the integrity of the game and, if you're offering a "second chance" at all it needs to be with a brand new team with the 6 base packs and 1000 PP.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Fenixdown

1. OOTP devs say one thing and mean something else. Yeah, devs, I'm looking at you. My guess is your ultimate decision to discipline teams for blatant disregard of the rules is based around the number of dollar signs they've given you. That's the only way to explain how some teams "might" get a ban and it seems some clearly do not get anything at all.

Definitely not true. There was a thread in PT20 from a guy who at least claimed to have spent 5K+ who was insta-banned for auction house manipulation.

2. Baseball doesn't give warnings to people who cheat. They issue fines first. So....that's a warning. Then they start suspensions. Or they do both.

Or they do nothing to the astros.

[Fenixdown]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Definitely not true. There was a thread in PT20 from a guy who at least claimed to have spent 5K+ who was insta-banned for auction house manipulation.



Or they do nothing to the astros.

Claims are one thing. Proof is another. I can claim I've given this company an entire year's salary on an internet forum. It doesn't mean that's accurate.



Secondly, the Astros as an organization were very much both a. fined (pretty heavily, in fact) and b. had both their manager and GM suspended (and ultimately fired). Just because the results weren't what everybody wanted doesn't mean there was no penalty whatsoever. The players were given immunity for cooperation in the investigation. That's no different than crime syndicate cases where the henchmen testify to bring down the boss and get off basically scott free for what they did as a result. Does it suck? Yeah. Does it mean there was no punishment? No. There is a very big difference. And I say this as someone who is not an Astros fan, and certainly not ever planning to be after what they did. A sadistic part of me wishes Kelly had hit one of those three square in the noggin instead of buzzing them. Manfred had to make a choice to either go the "lack of institutional control" route or not be able to get evidence to do anything to anybody.



Well, the downside in this game is that what tankers are doing is basically what the Astros did (or even the White Sox, which might be a more apt comparison) and they get even less of an actual punishment from the devs...if even any at all. Pretty sure Shoeless Joe Jackson didn't get "a warning".

[bailey]

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ghlight=banned

[Kris Jardine]

Did I miss the memo where Perfect Team became real life?

This is a video game, its not real life. Apples and oranges.

Is our moderation practice perfect? No, absolutely not. There is no such thing as perfect. As moderation evolves, ways around moderation evolve at the same rate. It's rinse and repeat. We keep assessing what happens in the PT universe from year-to-year and amend our practices as required.

Some of the comments made in the last few messages are just downright false and I'll continue to call them out as false so long as some users don't realize that we are all just doing our best to make the most stable, safe and exploit-free game possible. We all want the same thing

Shoeless Joe....c'mon, be better.

[ronhatch]

Originally Posted by Fenixdown

I have a clearcut tanker in my league. He's spent 5 seasons with the team, never made it past Stone, and every other season all of his high level diamond cards must suddenly suffer from the corona virus because they only play a handful of games.

Well, that could be tanking... but I know my brother lost most of his interest in PT and is playing teams with goals that have absolutely nothing to do with winning. Hmm... and I suppose his approach could be considered tanking, but it isn't "ordinary" tanking with the purpose of building a team that can win in the long term. It's a shame teams can't opt out of the main pool of leagues, but allowing that in a way that wouldn't change their earning potential one way or the other would definitely be a challenge.

[Marinersfan51]

I'm curious what people's opinions are of late season tanks once a team is already out of playoff contention in September? Is it acceptable to sit a few of your better players to ensure you get relegated if you were already heading that direction anyway?

[dkgo]

That would clearly be against the rules as written because you are intentionally losing.

It is also a massive failure in design that it is better to be relegated than to fight for your spot to stay up.

But perhaps it is an opportunity to see if anyone out there really needs a certain card and would pay well over average for some of those players on the auction house... and you only have worse players to fill out the roster with once they are listed... who can say

[Torgonius]

Want to curb tanking for relegation? Make PP earnings the week after relegation count only 25% of normal. Maybe 10%.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by Torgonius

Want to curb tanking for relegation? Make PP earnings the week after relegation count only 25% of normal. Maybe 10%.

Yikes. Every week there are hundreds of teams that get relegated legit. During that week, they already don't generate many points because they keep losing, and then you want to punish them for another week because you want to make an example out of a handful of people ? What is this ? The military ?

[One Great Matrix]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

There's a team in the Stone League I'm in that is dead last because their pitching his horrific. A deeper dive reveals that they've got all diamond cards in their lineup with lots and lots more diamond and gold cards on the bench and reserve. However, their pitching staff is all Bronze and below. The best pitchers on their team are Jim Abbott (69) and Geoff Zahn (69 and probably an underperformer due to that low STF). Tanking, you say? But wait! All those guys on their reserve roster are also position players as well. A quick glance suggests that they really are starting the best they have to offer.

So, if they've got diamond-level pitchers who are inactive, that's clearly tanking and they need to get disciplined for that, I think we can all agree. Of course, we can't see their inactives, although I'm sure the admins can. But what if they don't? What if they really and truly are just selling off all of their pitching rated 70 or higher in order to stay in the lower leagues and earn cheap PP? That strikes me as unethical (although tell me why I'm wrong if you disagree) but is it illegal by OOTP rules? Should there be a rule? How do you enforce that?

How do you feel about the situation today?

[One Great Matrix]

Originally Posted by Kris Jardine

Did I miss the memo where Perfect Team became real life?

This is a video game, its not real life. Apples and oranges.

Is our moderation practice perfect? No, absolutely not. There is no such thing as perfect. As moderation evolves, ways around moderation evolve at the same rate. It's rinse and repeat. We keep assessing what happens in the PT universe from year-to-year and amend our practices as required.

Some of the comments made in the last few messages are just downright false and I'll continue to call them out as false so long as some users don't realize that we are all just doing our best to make the most stable, safe and exploit-free game possible. We all want the same thing

Shoeless Joe....c'mon, be better.

ha, I appreciate the words, the guy I'm voting for President, Kris Jardine...

I was wondering why Shoeless can't just be the guy he is in 1919, though.

But there are some obvious answers to that.
But I guess there are some obvious objections (#3 all time BA) to him not destroying as well as any other player, all the pitching he faces.

Then again, ...logic & all that. We all want the same thing except when it comes to controversies like Shoeless & Charlie Hustle, yeah...and Derek Jeter's fielding.

[One Great Matrix]

BTW, that's an off-balance throw by Derek to nail Perez at the plate to kick off the 2000 World Series between the new york mets & the new york yankees

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Fenixdown

2. The devs don't even know how to police their own game...and are somehow fans of a game that has far stricter policing policies. A warning first? WHAT?!?!?!?!?! You seriously think an e-mail that says "hey! stop that!" is actually going to make people stop that? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You're either a. naive or b. stupid. Baseball doesn't give warnings to people who cheat. They issue fines first. So....that's a warning. Then they start suspensions. Or they do both. If you really wanna drive that message across that cheaters aren't tolerated, this is what you do. A. strip a team/user of EVERY SINGLE LAST PP THEY HAVE ON THEIR ACCOUNT. PERIOD. PURCHASED OR OTHERWISE. You THEN proceed to suspend them from tournament competition. For lengthy periods of time. Not hours. Not days. At LEAST weeks. First offense? 4 week suspension. Second? Double that. Third? You're done. Get out. Don't come back.

I'm not against you here, but the temptation to turn this into a copypasta is very high...

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by One Great Matrix

How do you feel about the situation today?

I quit playing PT several months ago, due in large part to inaction surrounding tanking.

[Yeloc]

Similar to Donny Baseball's thoughts, OOTP 22 could just scale "In Season Achievement Rewards" by League Level in PT.

Ex. "Hey now you"re an all-star" could be worth 25pp in Rookie, 50pp in Stone, 75 in Iron and so on. Also this would lessen the effect of having a "tank team" doling out large pp in "20-run routes" if say that reward was only 500pp in Rookie instead of 3000pp.

This might make some forms of "tanking" less appealing, and encourage them to move forward, to try for higher PP rewards, without applying more complicated "Cap scenarios". At least those preforming well in higher levels would benefit more in PP then the "tanking rookie team".