2006 Cubs Thread!

[cdheer]

Originally Posted by mauboy

I disagreed with this before and I'll disagree now.

If Prior and Wood never come back who will we have in our rotation two years from now?

As good as Zambrano is -- and, by all appearances, he's very good -- he doesn't make the contribution to the team that a guy like Tejada would. No starting pitcher will generate wins the way a serious bat would.

That's not to say you can ignore starting pitching; you can't. But by whatever standard you choose (win shares, for example), a stud starter doesn't individually contribute the way an MVP-calibre hitter does.

--chris

[cdheer]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

LOL...Yeah, okay Mal. I've never met any Cards' fan that used the phrase "I wish the Cubs were doing better" and meant it.

Mal's a lot of things, but as far as I have seen he's no liar. I do think he means it.

And he certainly does have a point; this team looks very bad at the moment.

I think Juan Pierre may turn it around -- he's a bit young for such a dramatic falloff. And while he won't be the best leadoff hitter, he's better than many, and one of the best (assuming he turns around) the Cub has had in many years.

I'm just concerned about a lack of power. Matt Murton seems great, but he's more of a contact guy. And I'm done with Jacque Jones. So where's our power going to come from? We need a corner outfielder or two that can really hit.

--chris

[piperclap]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

Getting Aramis Ramirez for nothing of consequence doesn't count? Bringing in Todd Walker and Michael Barrett don't count?

Aram was a good pickup.

But I disagree with the thinking that Michael Barret is a quality catcher-he's a good hitter, but he's below average defensively. How many 2-0 fastballs have been extra base hits because a pitcher is afraid to waste a pitch in the dirt with runners on base becasue barret can't block anything?

Move him to first, let hank white play!

I'm dissapointed that so many people here have drunk the Cubby Blue Kool-Aid and are OK accepting "not being the worst." We are a large market team, and we should be spending and making the effort as such. I'm sick of waiting for the future and being patient-its a bull**** line for people who are willing to accept mediocrity and blame it on injuries, or bad luck. Why can't we blame it on Jock Jones? Why can't we bench A-ram for being a peice of **** thus far? Why can't we see the truth that Michael Barret is a good hitter and a ****ty catcher? Why can't we accept that there are plenty of 2b's better than Todd Walker out there?

Why do we collectively, accept minor, do-nothing moves? Its ri-goddamn-diculous.

At least the meth heads on the southside have a team commited to winning.
The Cubs, it seems, are only commited to packing the bleachers and selling Wrigley field as an attraction, instead of the game on the field.

"What until next year" Has become a pretty ****ing tired refrain, having only seen a playoff team 3 times and never a world series . I've never even known the joy of feeling like we have a team that can reasonably compete with the best-it's always felt as if we were just lucky to be there.

And to make it worse, I have to listen to Bob ****ing Brenley when I watch games on WGN?


GAH! ****!

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by piperclap

But I disagree with the thinking that Michael Barret is a quality catcher-he's a good hitter, but he's below average defensively. How many 2-0 fastballs have been extra base hits because a pitcher is afraid to waste a pitch in the dirt with runners on base becasue barret can't block anything?

Move him to first, let hank white play!

His offense more than makes up for his defense, assuming his defense is even as bad as you say. Moving him to first would make him a well below average player for his position. That would be a poor use of resources.

Why can't we blame it on Jock Jones?

It's not any one player's fault. I agree that it was a poor signing, however.

Why can't we bench A-ram for being a peice of **** thus far?

Because, although he is off to a slow start, he is the best hitter on the active roster.

Why can't we see the truth that Michael Barret is a good hitter and a ****ty catcher?

See above.

Why can't we accept that there are plenty of 2b's better than Todd Walker out there?

There are? I can think of maybe a half dozen, but that's about it.

The Cubs have been unfortunate this year with the injuries to Lee, Wood and Prior. They also have several hitters who have been underperforming so far. The roster construction has not been the problem, although Pierre and Jones were very questionable acquisitions. Hendry has been trying to put together a championship team and the payroll has been more than adequate for the task. To a large extent, one can blame the failures of the last few seasons on plain bad luck, whether we are talking about injuries to Wood and Prior, Nomar's injury, the collapse against Florida, etc. However, when was the last time the Cubs have had the type of sustained success that they have had in the past few seasons? Not in my lifetime, that's for sure. The Cubs have had a consistent winner and they appear dedicated to continuing to do so. Just because they are off to a bad start this season is no reason to call for Hendry's head.

[piperclap]

The thing is, we haven't had a consistent winner. We had a team in 2003 that was lucky to make the playoffs to begin with (seriously, look at that roster. You see playoff team there?).

We also have maybe 2 or 3 exciting prospects in the minors.

We have Neifi Perez and Jock Jones. Those are problems of roster construction.

And why is it ok to say "injuries hurt us" ? How many teams deal with an injury during the season? Surely, the Cubs have not cornered the market on pitching injuries or injuries to key players.

The difference is the Cubs are allowed to get away with doing nothing and being patient because most of the fans are happy to sit in the bleachers, swill their Old Styles, and stare at the sorority girls in their bikini tops.

My entire argument is that its NOT OK to use injuries as an excuse. A well run team would have adequate backups (Those not named Neifi or John Mabry). A well run team would have a manager who is smarter than your average high functioning primate. A well run team would have gone and got a 5th starter not named Glendon Rusch.

This is far from a well run team. And its not a bad start-its a contuniuation of a dismal 2005 season. The same problems are showing their heads.

Its not to much to ask to have someone be held accountable for this shipwreck. You can only blame luck once or twice, and we've used up our quota for the decade. Its time to stop cursing the stars and doing something. Make a ****ing trade. Fire a ****ing coach.

Just do something besides running a lineup that includes hairy jerry and neifi and jon mabry on the same day. You deserve to lose when 3/4 of your infield deserve to be playing beer league town ball somewhere.

[mauboy]

We're going to the series!!!!!!!!!11111

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I grew up a Cards fan. .

If this were true, I wouldn't have needed to call you out on this issue.

I really don't care if you continue this. In fact, it's typical for a Cardinal fan to bash the Cubs. Now that I know the playing field's levelness, I understand why you are doing it. It's the rivalry thing.

But as Caporegime indicated...there isn't a Cardinal fan in the World that wants the Cubs to do better...talk about "misrepresentation..." LOL

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by mauboy

We're going to the series!!!!!!!!!11111

Yes! Against San Diego, this weekend in Wrigley.

Good call!

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by cdheer

As good as Zambrano is -- and, by all appearances, he's very good -- he doesn't make the contribution to the team that a guy like Tejada would. No starting pitcher will generate wins the way a serious bat would.

--chris

That's why I mentioned that. I think Tejada would be more productive, day in and day out, than Carlos.

I like Carlos a great deal, I just think the Cubs would have been better served to get anotherbat in the line up like Tejada's.

In comparison, I don't know the numbers, I'm just musing.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by piperclap

The thing is, we haven't had a consistent winner. We had a team in 2003 that was lucky to make the playoffs to begin with (seriously, look at that roster. You see playoff team there?).

2005: 79-83 with a spate of injuries to key players (Nomar, Wood, Prior)
2004: 89-73, three games out of the playoffs with a record that would have made the playoffs in 2005, 2003 and a number of other seasons. In addition, the pythag record says they should have won 94 games.
2003: 88-74, made the playoffs and advanced to the NLCS and very nearly the World Series

That's one playoff trip, another where they should have made the playoffs and a season lost to injuries to key players. Fire Dusty? Sounds good to me. Fire Hendry? Hell no.

[cinredsfan2000]

Found this on another board thought maybe you cub fans might get a laugh out of it . I certainly did.

RANT: Evil, evil Cubs fans
Warning: irrational, one-sided, low-maturity-level rant to follow:

I have had it with Cubs fans. If anyone ever again says a word to me about Yankees/Red Sox/Cardinals/Giants [fill in team here] fans and their arrogance, ignorance, or obnoxiousness, I am going to silently point them in the direction of Wrigleyville and watch their mouths drop when they get there. I have lived in Cincinnati, New York (they have two teams there), San Francisco, Seattle, and have visited stadiums in others too, and until I moved to Chicago (they have two teams here too, and one of them is even good, not that you'd ever know it), I had never, ever encountered anything like this. It is not the fact that they love a team that happens to be a rival of one of mine. I really have no serious problems with any other team in the division, nor any team in the division of my Yankees except for Boston. Quite the contrary, I have been researching the a year and a half now for a project, and I have great respect for the team and its fascinating, almost endearing history. But the fans have almost taken away anything I might have felt for the team itself, because of the way so many of them seem to view their own team, other teams, other fans, and even the sport.

Look, Cubs fans. You love a baseball team. I think that's wonderful. Your team has a history of heartbreak. I think you play that up a little bit, but there's no denying a lot of it, and you know God bless you for playing it up, because baseball heartbreak is one of the toughest kinds. I feel for you. Do you know why these things are? Because I love a baseball team too, and I have had baseball heartbreak too. What's that you say? That's impossible? The Cubs are the only team and and also the only team that has ever lost? And you're not going to listen to my infinite facts disputing these two claims because you're too busy vomiting your Jager shots on that Harry Caray statue over there? Fine then. That give me time to put all of the reasons why you drive me to insanity in convenient list form, and maybe my fellow Reds fans will be interested in hearing them.

1. Cubs fans believe their team is special and that everyone else thinks it is special too. I love the Reds; they are a special team. They started baseball, they fielded the greatest team in the history of the sport, and they boast a higher percentage of pretty uniforms than any other team in baseball historically speaking (present uniforms excepted). I love the Yankees; they are a special team. They are the greatest team in history and they play in the most extraordinary city in the world. My friend loves the Orioles; they are a special team...I have another friend who loves the Royals; they are a special team...do you see how this works, Cubs fans? Yes, you are unique, and so is your team. So is every other team. That's why there are different ones. I've had Cubs fans seem genuinely baffled when I tell them that I am not a Cubs fan. And then it gets better:

Exemplary actual quote: "You're a Reds fan? [pause] Why?" And not why in the way of, "Gosh, I'm really interested, why don't you tell me about your team and how you came by your fandom" but why in the way of "HUH?!?! People like OTHER TEAMS?!?" I am quite used to explaining my Yankees fandom and I have a stock speech prepared for inquisitors. But the Yankees are a HATED team. Cubs just cannot fathom a love of ANY other team, even a non-hated one.

2. Cubs fans believe that their fandom is special. (extension of point 1) If, by chance, a Cubs fan can get beyond point 1 and accept the fact that there are other teams that have fans, they still hit a standstill here. Another fan may love his team, but there is no way he can love it AS MUCH as the Cubs fans love the Cubs. It's a mystical thing with them. Because they have not won a World Series in eighty gajillion years, this somehow makes their fandom stronger. Now, I'm not arguing the devotion and loyalty of Cubs fans. Many baseball fans would have fallen off the bandwagon long ago (although I now believe that many fans have since jumped on the LOSER VICTIM bandwagon, but I'm not even going to get into that today). So kudos to them for sticking around. But the jump from "loyal fans" to "more loyal fans than any other team" is baffling to me. Talk to a Royals fan, will you. I never hear them complaining about their horrible horrible team or the curse of the call, and you know why? Probably because they're sitting at the ballpark watching the game instead of making love to that Harry Caray statue over there.

Exemplary actual quote: "I didn't choose the Cubs. They chose me. It's that kind of connection." Ahhhh I get it! No one else can possibly know what you feel for your team, because we all sat down with Bill James's books and chose our favorite teams based on who was most likely to not disappoint us statistically!! Whereas you were just shot in the heart by Cupid's Arrow of Love and Loserdom!!! The great -- the GREAT -- irony in this is that this quote came from, I kid you not, someone who has been following the Cubs since the fall of 2003. If that's not choosing a baseball team, I don't know what is. And the thing is, I hate myself for even thinking this way. I don't begrudge anybody any their fandom if it's genuine. I don't care if your parents played radio baseball games for you in the womb or if you became a fan at 40 years old because Sammy Sosa knocked you unconscious with a foul ball and paid your hospital bills. Heck, I came around to the Yankees later in my life and I think about them morning noon and night. But the "it's that kind of connection" part...this, to me, is critical in Cubsland. When you are a Cubs fan, you have a connection to a team unlike any other. aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. And this drives me to think this way.

Cubs fans are fans of the current Cubs team. They are not baseball fans. Ask a Cubs fan about Ichiro. Ask a Cubs fan about David Wright. Ask a Cubs fan about Joe Crede, even. They'll mumble a few words, then go back to talking about how Kerry Wood is due to be back any day now. Heck, ask one about Hack Wilson. You're likely to get a look of confusion, a furrowed brow, and a response of, "I dunno...hey, you wanna make out?" Some of them know what's going on, but they don't care to talk about it. They only want to talk about the Cubs. And since the Cubs are the only team and their fans are the most specialist ever in the history of the whole wide world, they assume that you feel the same way.

Exemplary direct quote: (Wrigley Field, Reds at Cubs, April 11, 2006. Bronson Arroyo pitching for the Reds against the Cubs for the second time this season) (5th or 6th inning, ie. well through the lineups already) "Hey, where's that Wily Mo dude?"

NOW. The thing is, I have known some wonderful Cubs fans in my life. There are a lot, a lot, of wonderful Cubs fans in fact; knowledgable, gracious, warm-hearted people who enjoy watching any baseball game, even if it's the Cubs against the Cardinals. I know two Cubs fans who are two of my loveliest friends and fellow baseball fans, though it's worth noting that neither of them lives in Chicago anymore. But the reason that I've reached my breaking point is that I used to think that those fans were the majority, and the ones sobbing and throwing up on Harry Caray over there were just a few burnt cookies who didn't spoil the batch. I'm starting to think that I was wrong. I'm starting to think, at the very least, that the good Cubs fans are dying out, and are being replaced by all the ones crawling on Harry Caray over there, who these days comprise the majority of my neighborhood and, more to the point, the crowd at Wrigley Field. What do you guys think?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

LOL...Yeah, okay Mal. I've never met any Cards' fan that used the phrase "I wish the Cubs were doing better" and meant it.

I said that I grew up a Cardinal fan. Now I'm more of a generic NL fan.

And I do wish the Cubs were doing better. They are so bad that they are an embarassment to the whole league.

They desperately need some management that knows how to properly value and manage players. Their player moves are so dumb as to be amazing.

Bill James wrote years ago about how he was shocked to discover that the management of the Indians was actually made up of dummies. Having watched the Cubs painfully self-destruct from a series of decisions that would disgrace a tabletop baseball league, I would be shocked to find out that Cubs management wasn't made up of dummies.

Here's my wish for the Cubs: new management figures who understand sabremetric principles and who know what VORP is.

[Dougiestyle]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

They are so bad that they are an embarassment to the whole league.

.

Quoted for idiocy.

[Modern Relic]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

They are so bad that they are an embarassment to the whole league.

I'm sure the fans and players in Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Seattle, Washington, Florida, and Pittsburgh will be glad to hear that.

[Malleus Dei]

That's right. Keep circling the wagon, boys. Keep telling yourself that it's just me.

Oh, while you weren't watching, Maxim magazine just named Dusty Baker as the worst manager in baseball.

http://www.maximonline.com/sports/7t...s.aspx?id=4566

"Guys like Tony La Russa approach the late innings like a chess match; Dustbag approaches them like a game of Connect Four."

[Malleus Dei]

One of the fans on that site posted this gem:

"When you think about it, the Cubs failing to field even a competent team 70% of the time over the last 25 years is one of baseball's great mysteries."

Amen.

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by Modern Relic

I'm sure the fans and players in Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Seattle, Washington, Florida, and Pittsburgh will be glad to hear that.

WAFFLE!

I think they should fire Baker. One mistake that glares is that he was starting Walker at first, after Lee's injury. When Mabry could have stepped into the role and perform the job he was signed for - back up 1st baseman...

Now we are seeing Mabry at first, so I give Baker props for that, but I think the team needs to be shaken up and the best way to do that is fire the manager, right?

Well, maybe not. But damn this is getting frustrating.

[Modern Relic]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

That's right. Keep circling the wagon, boys. Keep telling yourself that it's just me.

Oh, while you weren't watching, Maxim magazine just named Dusty Baker as the worst manager in baseball.

http://www.maximonline.com/sports/7t...s.aspx?id=4566

"Guys like Tony La Russa approach the late innings like a chess match; Dustbag approaches them like a game of Connect Four."

Good grief, for someone "supposedly" so intelligent, you sure do have a knack for not getting it. Nobody here, NOBODY thinks Baker is a good manager. All of us Cubs fans KNOW the team is doing badly.

However, until and unless you are making these same comments in the threads for several other teams as well, you're just another trash-talking Cardinal fan, despite any protestations of innocence. Go sell it somewhere else, I'm not buying it.

[Modern Relic]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

WAFFLE!

I think they should fire Baker. One mistake that glares is that he was starting Walker at first, after Lee's injury. When Mabry could have stepped into the role and perform the job he was signed for - back up 1st baseman...

Now we are seeing Mabry at first, so I give Baker props for that, but I think the team needs to be shaken up and the best way to do that is fire the manager, right?

Well, maybe not. But damn this is getting frustrating.

Indeed, it's painful to watch. The team needs some serious roster help, but I'm at a loss as to what they should even do.

I understand that they'd like to add a righty run-producer, but does anyone think Jeff Conine is the answer? I don't.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Modern Relic

you're just another trash-talking Cardinal fan

Trash-talking ex-Cardinal fan.