MLB at Congress

[TheRockCT]

Originally Posted by Jonzard

Okay, I didnt know Frank Thomas was vocal about anything much less steroids.

Gotta love this article from 2001 about how Frank was vocal about $$$, and the lack thereof - fantasic new nickname the writer gives him.

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2001...5/sports5.html

[Jonzard]

I had never heard the man talk to be honest.

[MogulChamp]

Originally Posted by TheRockCT

Gotta love this article from 2001 about how Frank was vocal about $$$, and the lack thereof - fantasic new nickname the writer gives him.

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2001...5/sports5.html

I remember back when this occured, as I have followed #35's career and he is my all time favorite ballplayer, and was cool as heck when I met him. A lot of his complaining had to do with the fact that all these juiced ballplayers were getting rediculous contracts, and he felt he was getting no respect financially. In hindsight he was correct, and he should have been handsomely compensated.

[tim_uwrf]

I think McGwire looked good. Whether he came off well or not is beside the point. Whether he took steroids or not is beside the point. I just think McGwire looked good for being an "old" retired baseball player.

He will always be one of my favorites and the 1998 season will continue to be one of the greatest that I've ever witnessed.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by asamford

ridiculous.

no idiotic political grandstanding bull**** is going to change my attitude towards any of the players who answered questions.

Why is that ridiculous? Why do you close your eyes and ears to what McGwire and others really are just because some politician might be helping his own career in the process?

I've never had respect for Canseco. Even when he was with the Jays he always came off as a jerk. Sosa always seemed like the smiley happy go-lucky kind of guy that as soon as you turn your back on him he'd steal whatever he could out of your back pocket. Schilling I liked until I became aware that every second word out of his mouth was likely going to do with religion or politics. Palmeiro, despite his questionable viagra ads (would you go on tv to sell viagra? I sure wouldn't), always seemed like a quiet stand-up guy. And then you have McQwire, which excepting that time when he was caught with andro, seemed like the all-America hero, the modern day Paul Bunyan if you will.

Today Canseco disappointed in not being as adamant over the whole steroid problem as he's seemed to be in the last while. You got the impression that some of the stuff he was saying was the truth, but from past impressions you know not to trust him very far. Sosa seemed like he just didn't want to talk, that he's learned it's better not to when you could be in big trouble. I also thought his level of comprehension was just fine and that this language barrier stuff is way overblown, even though some of the words he used were incorrect. Schilling made his expected audition for his next career by very carefully answering questions truthfully all the while side-stepping the real points of the questions. Oh, and you've never known anyone in your 18 or so years playing to take steroids, but there was plenty of talk of players on other clubs that did stuff? Please. Palmeiro seemed by far the most sincere. I never once detected something in his voice or or his posture that indicated he was lying or technically telling the truth, but really lying. I didn't like all his answers, but if I did then I probably would have thought he was just telling us what we wanted to hear. And then there was McQwire, the biggest disappointment of all. You know what? If you don't want to answer the questions then fine, just say so. I wouldn't want to either. But don't give us these bull**** lines about how you want to do what's right for the kids, but you don't want to talk about the past or about any negatives. "Those who do not learn from history..." If you really want to help, then help. Don't just give us lip service.

And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if it is political grandstanding or not. If being able to see the jokes that our heroes have become helps convince some kids that they're not really heroes when they do this junk and that if they really want to be great people then they need to do things clean, then I'm glad. Will it have a huge impact? I doubt it. But at least it might be something.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by kq76

Palmeiro, despite his questionable viagra ads (would you go on tv to sell viagra? I sure wouldn't), always seemed like a quiet stand-up guy.

May not have had a choice.

[disposableheros]

Originally Posted by Jonzard

Anyone want to explain why Frank Thomas was there? I saw the rest of the players, and they made sense why they were there. Why Frank Thomas?

he was asked to co-coordinate an anti-steroid advisory group with schilling

[disposableheros]

Originally Posted by torzh

...I also enjoyed the VP of Player relations because he was getting all mad.

i thought he was going to leap across the table and choke that jerk Shay.

Mandwhatever had, what i think, is a good reason for not handing over the original documents and repeatedly explained the situation.

it bothers me that these politicians arent in the room for 2/3 of the testimony and then come in firing accusations that have already been gone over 3 times before. they take their 5-10 minutes and make themslves feel important and then leave when their time is up.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by disposableheros

he was asked to co-coordinate an anti-steroid advisory group with schilling

If you need someone to co-co, then this fellow is nonpareil.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by asamford

I sure hope you don't have anybody up on a pedestal that chews tobacco, or smokes, or drinks, or has unprotected sex. That **** can kill you!

No way, man! But I do love Qualone.

[darkhorse]

Here's a good quote on this nonsense from BB Pro's Joe Sheehan. I heard his voice in a radio interview at MLB.com, a couple of days ago, and he sounds like a gawky teenager.

I see a number of assumptions in place in these hearings that I don't at all agree with. There's an assumption that drug testing without cause is a good thing. There's an assumption that somehow not enough attention is being paid to this issue, which is absurd. There's an assumption that baseball is drowning in steroids, when in fact, the testing itself indicates otherwise. There's an assumption that young athletes, who by every other account aren't watching much baseball these days, are somehow in such thrall of baseball players that they're using steroids because of them.

Four assumptions, and I don't think you can add up the truth in them to get to even one.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

If McGwire did use steroids, and I happen to believe he did, then he did the only thing he could do today. Anything else would leave him open to some sort of prosecution, either for using or for lying to Congress. He'll weather this, because people like him and have fond memories of the 70 HR season, tainted or not.

But what prosecution? He couldn't be taken on criminal charges, because a) then they'd have to recall 100s of athletes who have been found to take steroids, or b) in a civil case by a ballclub, because he could just say 'I used them once when MLB didn't ban them'.

Nobody will be prosecuted for using steroids. Lying to Congress, well, maybe, but it's pretty unlikely - has Schilling really never seen a syringe? McGwire could only become subject to a series of smear campaigns.

Look at the assumptions of guilt - Sammy Sosa is guilty, Palmeiro is not - because Palmeiro made more of a noise. Well, Schilling and Palmeiro are also the only ones who left themselves open to being sued by Canseco for slander.

McGwire has been advised by his lawyers not to speak about these matters. That could be anything, but it seems to be more likely concerning a suit for libel than it is that he's going to face any extra-curricular punishment. Can you imagine the precedent set? How many Ben Johnson's would have to be recalled? It would also potentially make the testing process in jeopardy - like a warrant for search, if a test had legal ramifications and was being administered by just some random gents, I'm pretty sure you could demand to have it only administered by representatives of the law.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by asamford

I sure hope you don't have anybody up on a pedestal that chews tobacco, or smokes, or drinks, or has unprotected sex. That **** can kill you!

Also, more importantly, we're talking about someone who testified before congress that he considers himself a role model.

[Joshv02]

Just thought I"d bring it up, b/c I haven't seen it mentioned. Sosa did not deny steriod use. He denied illegal steriod use. A good cross examination would have made this clear.

[Jason Moyer]

The quote I have from Sosa denies both steroid use and human growth hormone. In fact, that was in is opening statement.

[Joshv02]

I'm re-listening to his opening statement. This is what I hear from his lawyer reading his statement:

"I would never put anything dangerous like that in my body . . . To be clear, I have never taken illegal performance inhancing drugs. I have never injected myself nor had anyone inject me with anything. I have not broked the laws of the United States nor the laws of the Domincan Republic. I have been tested as recently as 2004 and I am clean. I support testing atheletes for illegal performance enhancing drugs."

He may have said other things at some other point, and/or given a statement that I didn't read. I heard/read at somepoint that he was to release a statement to the press. Was that different?

[Joshv02]

OTOH, Raffy says, "I have never used steriords. Period." FWIW. (IMHO, it is worth the cost of Sammy's lawyer.)

[asamford]

Originally Posted by kq76

Why is that ridiculous? Why do you close your eyes and ears to what McGwire and others really are just because some politician might be helping his own career in the process?

Who said I was closing my eyes to what they really are? I just said my attitude wasn't going to change towards the players. I personally don't care what drugs they do or don't use. I could take all of the steroids and greenies in the world and I'm not going to have the skills to play baseball on a major league level. But if an athelete of that caliber has found a way to get a little bit of an extra edge and is willing to take the risk of whatever consequences may befall him because of that, then more power to him! Let people do what the **** they want to themselves. They're not harming anybody else.

I've never had respect for Canseco. Even when he was with the Jays he always came off as a jerk.

So?

Sosa always seemed like the smiley happy go-lucky kind of guy that as soon as you turn your back on him he'd steal whatever he could out of your back pocket.

jeez man. you seem to want to find the worst in people just because of how they "seem" to you. What exactly is it about Sammy Sosa that in your mind equates him to a conman and a thief?

Palmeiro, despite his questionable viagra ads (would you go on tv to sell viagra? I sure wouldn't), always seemed like a quiet stand-up guy.

i don't have any problem with going on TV to sell viagra. Why not? Are you worried that somebody might think you less of a man because you need a pill to help you get it up? Is that how you view others?

And then you have McQwire, which excepting that time when he was caught with andro, seemed like the all-America hero, the modern day Paul Bunyan if you will.

ok. I see him as a power hitting first basemen who was a bit injury prone. If someone else sees him as an american hero and a modern day Paul Bunyan then that's their perception, and their problem.

And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if it is political grandstanding or not. If being able to see the jokes that our heroes have become helps convince some kids that they're not really heroes when they do this junk and that if they really want to be great people then they need to do things clean, then I'm glad. Will it have a huge impact? I doubt it. But at least it might be something.

firstly, I don't think baseball players are heroes. Even if someone sees them as such, then how is that any different from Mickey Mantle being your hero and then finding out he's a drunk and an ass hole? And why does a great baseball player have to be a great person? He's there to play baseball. If you kicked all of the jerks and the ass holes out of baseball, you wouldn't have very many players left. So what? Who cares? I just want to see them play ball. If after the game they go get stoned and have gay sex with their boyfriend while telling their wife the team bus was late in getting back to the hotel then good for them. I DON'T CARE.

My favorite player for the past 20 years has been Cecil Fielder. I thought he was cool. I didn't idolize or worship him. When it became news that Cecil went millions of dollars into debt due to a gambling problem, I said "damn, that sucks for Cecil" and went about my day. It didn't crush my childhood image and my lifelong dream or anything. Cecil will still always be my favorite player of all time.

[kq76]

Asamford, it sounds like you just don't care what these players do, even if they're teaching kids to be junkies and cheaters. If that's true that you don't care, then I'm puzzled as to why you responded with "ridiculous" to what I said.

To respond to a few specific points:

Originally Posted by asamford

They're not harming anybody else.

Not true and I think you know it. If you injected yourself with a whole bunch of heroine and your kids didn't exactly see you do it but they could surmise that you had just by how you were acting and then came to the conclusion that dealing with their problems in that way was a viable course of action, would you say you had not hurt them by what you had done to yourself?

Originally Posted by asamford

jeez man. you seem to want to find the worst in people just because of how they "seem" to you. What exactly is it about Sammy Sosa that in your mind equates him to a conman and a thief?

It's true, I'm being judgemental here. I'm just going off what I think I've learned by watching people's mannerisms though. If people love Sosa then fine, but I wouldn't trust him one bit. This goes back even before the corked bat incident. It surprises me that that didn't really change many people's opinions of him. People still love him and I can only guess because people love to see others smile.

Originally Posted by asamford

i don't have any problem with going on TV to sell viagra. Why not? Are you worried that somebody might think you less of a man because you need a pill to help you get it up? Is that how you view others?

I'll admit I despise commercials in general and I do think less of famous people who go on tv to sell something. It degrades them in my eyes. Now some things I really don't even notice, like a basketball player selling shoes, but watching Mickey Rooney sell life insurance, Raffy sell viagra, Shatner sell All-Bran does, as well as a host of other celebs and products. I don't at all look at life insurance as a bad thing, nor do I look at viagra as a bad thing (I wish a friend of mine's bf would take it so she would stop whining about how little she's getting), nor All-Bran (I love bran flakes with the raisins). I just think it's demeaning and I wouldn't do it. Do I still like Raffy and Shatner despite their choices? Yes, but I just wish they wouldn't.

[Crapshoot]

I think the point you're missing repeatedly Keiran is that you are looking to baseball players to raise your children as the models to be - think again. They have no such frigging responsibility. Equating Samford doing heroin and the results to a baseball player doing something with his kids ? Does that not seem ridiculous even at face value ?