A litte update!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Just what do you mean by that, huh?!? Huh? Yeah, I'm talking to you, there ain't nobody else here. Where's that button for reporting posts?

Did you ever drive a taxi?

[Dreifort]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Wow, we lost a lot of good comments out of this thread.

like this one?

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

The AI in OOTP has improved since the implementation of sound. So I would disagree with your assumption that the OOTP team has neglected the AI.

But, I still love ya anyways Wolfie!

Did I start a Wolfie trend? Awww...ain't I cute.


For the record by saying "Wolfie" that means you like him. It's not antagonistic...well, it a little jibe.

Yes, yes...The AI has improved in some respects. But you obviously do not involve yourself in the minutiae like I do. I am forced to play with DH only worlds becuase the AI just does not know how to PH.

Aren't you tired of seeing the AI pinch hit for the SS late in a close game and replace him with the back-up catcher in the next inning? Aren't you tired of seeing the #1 HS draft pick of options by his 3rd professional season? It doesn't bother you that the AI doesn't even bother with the rule 5 because it has full rosters? Doesn't it bother you that the AI shuffles players up and down needlessly destroying morale just because it has to have 100% full rosters? Doesn't it bother you that every single AI team with the same owner mood sets their ticket prices exactly the same? All win nows are the same. All neutrals are the same. All rebuilds are the same. Why not take advantage of that market size and fan interest and jack up prices in a half-hearted attempt to build a dynasty?

There are so many holes...I could go on and on. Hopefully, someone can put together a list and send it to Markie-Marc. Hold on now...Hey, man, I 'm with you. I love this game too. But to pretend that that the AI is actually getting better? Come on now. Really? It's been the same exact flaws since 2007.

I'm not looking to pick a fight but I gotta be straight. Hopefully you understand that I'm not trolling and I'm not looking to argue. I just completely disagree with you that the AI (especially roster management) is noticeably improved.

I do agree that v. 14 is a must buy. There are so many cool features. Markie-Marc has made a great game. There is no doubt about that. I always give it a 10 on Metacritic. Whenever anyone says, "should I buy this game?" I always say yes. I try to share mods with the community. I try to write dynasty reports. I try to remain very active on the message boards. I do everything I can to to help Markie-Marc selll units.

Why?

Because more sales equals more resources. More resources equals more AI improvements. More financial stuff. More historical stuff. More customization. All that effort that I put into this community really felt good when I found out how popular OOTP has become. I know Marcus deserves the whales share of the credit. But it still felt good that I contributed to that success. I'm just pissed off that 3-D is more important than financials & AI improvements.

Anyway, Markie deserves everything that he has earned over the past 10 years. I have absolute respect for the man and I sincerely appreciate the enjoyment that he has provided to me over the years. And...because of all those reasons...I have a right to be his biggest critic. He gets plenty of "atta-boys." He doesn't need one from me. He needs the truth once in awhile.

The truth has made him wealthy not the "atta-boys"

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Aren't most online leagues ran with all users with no AI involvement?

This remind me of FOF7 where all the improvements were to AI but the online community felt that AI improvements wasn't enough after all those years waiting for an update.

As a person who failed to be a good member of an AI community I can tell you first hand that the online players have plenty of their own gripes that have not been addressed. As much as I hate to see an online player gripe (for my own solo player reasons) 7-day line-ups and depth charts are not working as intended.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Sorry for the multiple posts...I see I have a lot of catching up to do over the last week or so.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Absolutely agree with this. I really, really don't get the recent trend on these boards to bash the OOTP ai and certainly don't want it to appear that I was joining in it.

OOTP's ai is frankly incredible compared to other games in the same genre, and while it can always use some tweaks and refinements it's probably not ever going to get significantly better since it's so darn good now.

I respect you immensely.

I don't think it is AI bashing that you have seen lately. I think that ever since Charlie Hough spoke out it became clear that the community didn't have to fear being honest anymore. Maybe that opened the floodgates and we all realized at the same time that just because you don't like something about the game doesn't mean that people won't like you anymore.

There's nothing wrong with being bold, with being critical, and with being deadly honest. The trap is when we forget to say how great this game is. Sure, there's problems and we need to identify them and be vocal about what needs to be improved. That is what made this game so great. Marcus listens.

At the same time we don't want to be a headache. He does need to hear how awesome he is. But trust me, he's a German. There's a reason why the best cars in the world are German. He's tough he can take it. And, with that funky haircut...he's probably pretty cool too.

So...great game. Now let's get to work on thew AI shall we?

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You think they quit programming AI and minor league management and everything? Nope. They are even hiring the second programmer. It means they will do twice the work they do now. What's in there that you don't like?

We already had the opportunity cost discussion

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by pjh5165

completely agree. Minor league management, ai roster construction and player valuation, the trade engine, scouting, bullpen usage, etc. Are actual major gameplay items that could use some improvement.

Then there's the small stuff: The issues with jersey numbers, nicknames, trade difficulty settings, problems that arise using roster limits, text scouting reports, etc.

I agree that the ootp ai is top-notch compared to the competition, but nobody would say that it's perfect as is. It's just concerning to a good number of us that 3d graphics, which are purely cosmetic, are taking precedent over making the ai even better than it already is.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I just want to add one more rambling thought to the muck & mire.

Some of us have really bad memories here. Every year Markus gives us an opportunity to request the addition of new features for the upcoming version of OOTP, and every year he adds at least one (some years more than one). While I'm not a big of the addition of 3D, you'd have to have your head buried deep in a pungent mud pile not to acknowledge that the addition of graphics have consistently been one of the most requested features many of our fellow OOTP 'ers have made over the years. Markus, always responsive to his customer base, finally adds it, but like any new feature, it needs a lot of work.

Believe me, I know Markus doesn't need me to defend him, but all he did today was state the obvious. Comparatively speaking, the AI is fine compared to the current state of OOTP's fledgling graphics engine. It's the rusty hinge that currently needs the most oil. This feature has already been added to the game and it needs to be implemented properly, but nowhere did he state that he will do so at the expense of the AI. If anything, Markus should be commended for not being like so many other game developers who simply half-ass everything.

I wonder if those complaining would genuinely feel the same way if Markus expressed a desire to devote more resources to a new feature that they wanted added to the game? I certainly know I wouldn't (Tournament Mode, anyone?)

I used to be a big proponent of graphics. It was some sort of nostalgic desire to relive my Micro League Baseball days of my youth. But someone had some magic words to day that has forever changed my opinion:

Graphical representation of the engine's outcome.

I really don't care about the the graphical representation. I just want the engine to be perfect.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by byzeil

I couldn't care less about 3D in OOTP but for Markus this is his livelihood, and his baby, and if he determines that adding 3D is going to increase his income significantly then that is what he will do for his business. Is there a chance that the AI improvements will suffer from a lack of attention, sure, but I trust Markus not to let his baby suffer that fate. Doesn't hurt to state our opinions but the hyperbole takes power from those opinions.

If 3D increases sales enough it could actually lead to more resources to work on the AI. Markus has to continue to try to grow his customer base.

This is the best pro-graphics argument that I have heard. By sacrificing AI now and increasing sales to hook the "eye-candy" crowd then at some point more resources could be put into the AI than would have without the additional sales. Is there as a term for that? Opportunity investment?

Perhaps Markie-Marc is a more shrewd business man than I have given him credit for.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by MrDov

This is silly how against 3D graphics some people are, acting like it's the beginning of the end for the OOTP series. I personally probably won't ever use 3D graphics when I play, but it's an incredibly selfish attitude to sit there and say "This is exactly how I want the game to be developed, Markus should cater only to my desires, and anyone who disagrees is 100% wrong." Just because the inclusion of 3D graphics doesn't enhance your personal user experience doesn't mean it won't enhance someone else's. And I'd personally guess adding 3D graphics has a higher chance of increasing the OOTP user base than not and exclusively focusing on AI. With the talk of them hiring new people, it makes sense, at least to me, to try to increase the user base and increase income. And please, don't use extremes to try and show that catering to more people is a bad thing. It's a case by case thing, and in this case I'd say it's a good thing.

Well said.

It looks like the pro 3D-cowd has a new rally cry: "Opportunity Investment"

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

But I don't want a tournament mode. I'll never use a tournament mode. I don't care if other people want it; it's just pointless fluff. Why would they spend time and effort on a tournament mode when they could be fixing playoff tiebreakers? Markus has got to get his priorities straight.

I love the MA Tampa Fire Guy

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Okay, time to bow out of this thread, since it's pretty much going round in circles now. The last thing I will say is this:

I trust Markus. So should you all. I personally don't think 3D is a great idea, but if he believes that adding it will help the game in the long run, then so be it. I find it hard to believe he's going to be any less passionate about making OOTP the best it can be just because he's implementing graphics. In fact, I see no correlation there at all. So if you think OOTP16, 17, and 18 are going to be worse games than 15 currently is all because of the addition of 3D graphics, well, I'm not one to judge. But anyone who's stuck around this game and these forums for a more than a few releases should know better.

EDIT: Also, let the graphics-obsessed crybabies whine. Who cares? Markus has no intention of having graphics on par with console games, so their complaints are going to fall on deaf ears. Doesn't bother me.

No, stick around. Contribute. Be heard. I care. Be honest.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Lol, you predict misery, do you? For crying out loud. Will you take a step back and listen to yourself. A horde of locusts can bring misery, perhaps a runaway brush fire, or even living next door to a cannibal with a voracious appetite....but a video game? I have to wonder what kind of life you've led if you sincerely believe a video game possesses that kind of power over you, even one as great as OOTP. It must be a charmed one.

And if you're worried that an infusion of graphics-obssessed newcomers will lower the collective I.Q. around here you can put your mind at ease. The fact that we're even having this discussion proves that it has nowhere to go but up.

Hey, if you disagree with the man don't attack his life (a great and honorable life he leads) attack his opinion. And all the burning brush fire fire arguments are pretty lame.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

Sorry for the multiple posts...I see I have a lot of catching up to do over the last week or so.

Say, HP, are you done? Can I get a post in here, edge-wise?

Thanks. I just want to say that Markus has always advanced the development of this game on MULTIPLE FRONTS. It seems to me that improved AI and other reality simulation enhancements have gone ahead at the same pace with crowd-pleasing introductions of sound, ball animation, FaceGen, and now 3D stadiums. I don't think we have anything to fear.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I'm just pissed off that 3-D is more important than financials & AI improvements.

This. This right here is the reason this thread exploded. I'm not disagreeing with you here, HP, but the wording makes this into a much bigger issue than it actually is. 3D and AI improvements aren't mutually exclusive. One does not get better at the expense of the other. Now, I understand what you're trying to say - that the money going into creating the 3D could instead be funneled into another AI programmer, or something of the sort. That is true. That is absolutely true. But phrasing it like above, making it sound like the AI is going to actively suffer because of the addition of 3D, is where things went off the rails in the first place.

I for one don't mind the 3D. As I said before, I trust that Markus is going to put out the best product on the market. Also, as I said in a post that got lost in the Great Server Vortex, I don't think the graphics "locusts" are going to force Markus to channel all his energy into graphics, as some have insinuated. He is, and will likely always be, in charge of the AI. So I'm cool with the addition of 3D. But I also accept the argument that the time and funds could be allocated elsewhere. That makes sense. Thing is, a lot of people have (most likely unintentionally) phrased it like HP just did, saying that 3D is "more important" or that the AI is going to "suffer" from it. Making it sound like it's 3D vs. AI, and we have to pick a side. That's not true; the AI is going to improve at the same pace it always has - whether that pace is good enough or not, that should be the heart of the debate.

[The Wolf]

Fair enough.

IMO the pace isn't quick enough.

[Dreifort]

Don't forget, this is Markus & Co's game. Not ours.

I choose to continue to support OOTP because of the direction and goals Markus & Co have for this game. I may not like every single detail or may want more details, but I admire their ultimate goal - to make the best baseball sim (& game) on the market.

Free market. It's how it's supposed to work.

If for whatever reason (which I highly doubt) they decide to focus on becoming more like a console instead of a sim, then I have to operate the way a free market is supposed to operate. And we have to understand that OOTP has to recognize free market, and in doing so, do things to open up their market that we may or may not like.

BUT, we are over abundantly spoiled by the customer service and interaction that Markus & Co have given all their fans/users for over the past decade.

This is their game and I am happy to tag along for the ride! But it's our choice to ride along.

[The Wolf]

I'm sorry, but I'm just not that passive.

I buy a lot of software. As a customer - and especially as a repeating customer - I expect and deserve to be heard. Companies that don't listen to their customers tend to go broke, and good riddance.

[Dreifort]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm sorry, but I'm just not that passive.

I buy a lot of software. As a customer - and especially as a repeating customer - I expect and deserve to be heard. Companies that don't listen to their customers tend to go broke, and good riddance.

typically ppl who feel this way start their own company and put the other out of business

not saying you should, lol

Time Warner hasn't gone out of business? (yet) and they don't listen to their customers. In fact I'm not aware of a cable company that does listen?

I think the big question is, who decides which customers OOTP should listen to? Does a loyal customer for 10 yrs = or > than 10 new customers? or vice-versa?

I don't have the answer and I think ppl could pull data to argue both pts for weeks on end. I am excited at the thought of improved game graphics for OOTP, but I also fear the thought of graphics. I'm fully aware of consequences. But I also understand the rewards of risk.

I don't think it's passive, just a realization for me.