A litte update!

[MrDov]

This is silly how against 3D graphics some people are, acting like it's the beginning of the end for the OOTP series. I personally probably won't ever use 3D graphics when I play, but it's an incredibly selfish attitude to sit there and say "This is exactly how I want the game to be developed, Markus should cater only to my desires, and anyone who disagrees is 100% wrong." Just because the inclusion of 3D graphics doesn't enhance your personal user experience doesn't mean it won't enhance someone else's. And I'd personally guess adding 3D graphics has a higher chance of increasing the OOTP user base than not and exclusively focusing on AI. With the talk of them hiring new people, it makes sense, at least to me, to try to increase the user base and increase income. And please, don't use extremes to try and show that catering to more people is a bad thing. It's a case by case thing, and in this case I'd say it's a good thing.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I wonder if those complaining would genuinely feel the same way if Markus expressed a desire to devote more resources to a new feature that they wanted added to the game? I certainly know I wouldn't (Tournament Mode, anyone?)

But I don't want a tournament mode. I'll never use a tournament mode. I don't care if other people want it; it's just pointless fluff. Why would they spend time and effort on a tournament mode when they could be fixing playoff tiebreakers? Markus has got to get his priorities straight.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

But I don't want a tournament mode. I'll never use a tournament mode. I don't care if other people want it; it's just pointless fluff. Why would they spend time and effort on a tournament mode when they could be fixing playoff tiebreakers? Markus has got to get his priorities straight.

Tournament mode would at least be part of the actual game. As opposed to useless fluff.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrDov

This is silly how against 3D graphics some people are, acting like it's the beginning of the end for the OOTP series.

Another falsehood. Nobody said that here. I and others believe that 3D is a mistake and a mislocation of resources that could be better used to improve the actual game. You are welcome to disagree but not to unfairly misrepresent our position.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Not personal at all, I've been asking for an option to remove nicknames since OOTP13 and that option would improve the game for me...No sarcasm here If I had to pick between sound or removing nicknames, sound would get the axe.

My mistake. I agree with you about removing nicknames, at least.

[MrDov]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Another falsehood. Nobody said that here. I and others believe that 3D is a mistake and a mislocation of resources that could be better used to improve the actual game. You are welcome to disagree but not to unfairly misrepresent our position.

Then why all the comparisons to console games with high end graphics if you aren't trying to imply that's the direction OOTP is headed? I understand your point about target audience, but in what way does OOTP adding 3D graphics completely shift its target audience and production goal like I think you were trying to imply? (correct me if I'm wrong, just don't get any of the comparisons to console games) All the inclusion of 3D graphics does is slightly increase the range of the target audience on one end of the current spectrum.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Another falsehood. Nobody said that here. I and others believe that 3D is a mistake and a mislocation of resources that could be better used to improve the actual game. You are welcome to disagree but not to unfairly misrepresent our position.

Rusty actually did say something along those lines. You're right, most people aren't projecting doom and gloom, but MrDov did say "some people".

[JMDurron]

I can live with the 3D mode development so long as it always stays optional for in-game play. My system ground down to 1/3 of the normal sim speed when I turned it on, and I'm never going to be buying a new computer just to play OOTP.

Thankfully, given Markus' record on feature customization in OOTP, I doubt that I have much to worry about in this regard. It just needs to stay off by default until/unless the "Show 3D" toggle is on the pregame lineup screen instead of only on the in-game sim screens.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrDov

Then why all the comparisons to console games with high end graphics if you aren't trying to imply that's the direction OOTP is headed? I understand your point about target audience, but in what way does OOTP adding 3D graphics completely shift its target audience and production goal like I think you were trying to imply? (correct me if I'm wrong, just don't get any of the comparisons to console games) All the inclusion of 3D graphics does is slightly increase the range of the target audience on one end of the current spectrum.

OOTP is headed that direction. I don't predict doom and gloom, but I do predict problems and misery. Once 3D exists and that new market segment of 3D gamers arrives, they will want one thing and one thing only: better and better graphics (before you say it won't happen, be aware that not only does it happen, it is virtually inevitable). Satisfying them will require more and more and even more resources. There will never be an end to it.

Do you want a better game or a pretty one? I want a better one, and I do not believe that OOTP has chosen wisely in choosing pretty. Hate me all you want for wanting a better text-based simulation. I don't care.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Rusty actually did say something along those lines. You're right, most people aren't projecting doom and gloom, but MrDov did say "some people".

Rusty wrote: "I believe it will be bad for the game."

He did not write anything about it bring the beginning of the end, or the game's doom.

Mr. Dov was wrong.

[ConStar]

Some of you are getting awful fired up over a video game.

I found this game when someone on a college football message board linked a news article where some guy had written about overcoming addiction from this game. No joke. Some of the comments in this thread are pointing right back to that article.

Personally, 3D is not even in my top ten list of things I'd add to/subtract from the game, but if it comes, it comes. I'll likely not use it until it gets to the point that it looks like a real game on TV and if it never does, I won't care much.

But what I seriously want to know is where these complaints about the AI are coming from, as if this game has a stack of quarters in its hand and just flips them to produce random heads/tails outcomes. The in-game AI from Diamond Mind Baseball is a little better, but not by much, and the last DMB version I played didn't have any of 100 or more features that make this game the best. I've been playing computer sim baseball since 1987 and this game has no peer.

The other point to make is that it's impossible to make the AI in this game or any other game, of any genre, as accurate as some want to believe possible. If you want a flawless AI that never goes off script, save yourself the subscription to this game and instead buy a huge DVR, set it to record MLB Network every day and then watch it at night before you go to bed.

Bottom line, the AI will be improved every version. But if you convince yourself the AI is junk, it will still be junk when it's improved. That's the great thing about the AI argument -- since it's not easy to quantify, it makes for a great focal point for complaints.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

OOTP is headed that direction. I don't predict doom and gloom, but I do predict problems and misery. Once 3D exists and that new market segment of 3D gamers arrives, they will want one thing and one thing only: better and better graphics (before you say it won't happen, be aware that not only does it happen, it is virtually inevitable). Satisfying them will require more and more and even more resources. There will never be an end to it.



Do you want a better game or a pretty one? I want a better one, and I do not believe that OOTP has chosen wisely in choosing pretty. Hate me all you want for wanting a better text-based simulation. I don't care.

I want the best game there is out there. If adding some 3d graphics will help sell it to another 10k people, that's enough money to hire another AI programmer. The game is growing, but there's nothing that says that it can't grow both by adding more 3d and by refining the gameplay/AI components.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

OOTP is headed that direction. I don't predict doom and gloom, but I do predict problems and misery. Once 3D exists and that new market segment of 3D gamers arrives, they will want one thing and one thing only: better and better graphics (before you say it won't happen, be aware that not only does it happen, it is virtually inevitable). Satisfying them will require more and more and even more resources. There will never be an end to it.

Do you want a better game or a pretty one? I want a better one, and I do not believe that OOTP has chosen wisely in choosing pretty. Hate me all you want for wanting a better text-based simulation. I don't care.

Lol, you predict misery, do you? For crying out loud. Will you take a step back and listen to yourself. A horde of locusts can bring misery, perhaps a runaway brush fire, or even living next door to a cannibal with a voracious appetite....but a video game? I have to wonder what kind of life you've led if you sincerely believe a video game possesses that kind of power over you, even one as great as OOTP. It must be a charmed one.

And if you're worried that an infusion of graphics-obssessed newcomers will lower the collective I.Q. around here you can put your mind at ease. The fact that we're even having this discussion proves that it has nowhere to go but up.

[Spindel]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Nope.

I envisioned the staff playing an actual basketball game.

[Bowtie]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Lol, you predict misery, do you? For crying out loud. Will you take a step back and listen to yourself. A horde of locusts can bring misery, perhaps a runaway brush fire, or even living next door to a cannibal with a voracious appetite....but a video game? I have to wonder what kind of life you've led if you sincerely believe a video game possesses that kind of power over you, even one as great as OOTP. It must be a charmed one.

And if you're worried that an infusion of graphics-obssessed newcomers will lower the collective I.Q. around here you can put your mind at ease. The fact that we're even having this discussion proves that it has nowhere to go but up.

I'd be very careful about saying that the graphics-obsessed newcomers will not lower the collective I.Q. around here. Sorry but I'm with Wolf on this one. Once the graphics-obsessed newcomers show up they will be just like that horde of locusts you mentioned. They will not be satisfied until this game has the graphics very closely matching those of MLB the Show. I used to be a member of EA Sports forums and all I read in my time there was a boat load of complaints about their graphics in the MLB 2K series and the Front Office Manager games - how they fell so short in comparison to MLB The Show's graphics.

Yes, there is a real chance that things around here might get problematic if the horde of locusts show up.

[Fyrestorm3]

Okay, time to bow out of this thread, since it's pretty much going round in circles now. The last thing I will say is this:

I trust Markus. So should you all. I personally don't think 3D is a great idea, but if he believes that adding it will help the game in the long run, then so be it. I find it hard to believe he's going to be any less passionate about making OOTP the best it can be just because he's implementing graphics. In fact, I see no correlation there at all. So if you think OOTP16, 17, and 18 are going to be worse games than 15 currently is all because of the addition of 3D graphics, well, I'm not one to judge. But anyone who's stuck around this game and these forums for a more than a few releases should know better.

EDIT: Also, let the graphics-obsessed crybabies whine. Who cares? Markus has no intention of having graphics on par with console games, so their complaints are going to fall on deaf ears. Doesn't bother me.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Okay, time to bow out of this thread, since it's pretty much going round in circles now. The last thing I will say is this:

I trust Markus. So should you all. I personally don't think 3D is a great idea, but if he believes that adding it will help the game in the long run, then so be it. I find it hard to believe he's going to be any less passionate about making OOTP the best it can be just because he's implementing graphics. In fact, I see no correlation there at all. So if you think OOTP16, 17, and 18 are going to be worse games than 15 currently is all because of the addition of 3D graphics, well, I'm not one to judge. But anyone who's stuck around this game and these forums for a more than a few releases should know better.

x1000!

[Bowtie]

Originally Posted by ConStar

Some of you are getting awful fired up over a video game.

I found this game when someone on a college football message board linked a news article where some guy had written about overcoming addiction from this game. No joke. Some of the comments in this thread are pointing right back to that article.

Personally, 3D is not even in my top ten list of things I'd add to/subtract from the game, but if it comes, it comes. I'll likely not use it until it gets to the point that it looks like a real game on TV and if it never does, I won't care much.

But what I seriously want to know is where these complaints about the AI are coming from, as if this game has a stack of quarters in its hand and just flips them to produce random heads/tails outcomes. The in-game AI from Diamond Mind Baseball is a little better, but not by much, and the last DMB version I played didn't have any of 100 or more features that make this game the best. I've been playing computer sim baseball since 1987 and this game has no peer.

The other point to make is that it's impossible to make the AI in this game or any other game, of any genre, as accurate as some want to believe possible. If you want a flawless AI that never goes off script, save yourself the subscription to this game and instead buy a huge DVR, set it to record MLB Network every day and then watch it at night before you go to bed.

Bottom line, the AI will be improved every version. But if you convince yourself the AI is junk, it will still be junk when it's improved. That's the great thing about the AI argument -- since it's not easy to quantify, it makes for a great focal point for complaints.

1. By you saying that "Personally, 3D is not even in my top ten list of things I'd add to/subtract from the game, but if it comes, it comes. I'll likely not use it until it gets to the point that it looks like a real game on TV and if it never does, I won't care much" you are indirectly admitting that the developers possibly have misused assets that could be better spent by improving the pre-existing product first - namely the AI.

2. Nobody here is saying that we think the AI is "junk". Only you are saying that. All we are saying is that we think the AI improvements should have come first then perhaps the eye candy graphics.

Bottom line: Do we expect the AI to be perfect? Gee willikers no. But there's always room for improvements though.

[ConStar]

Originally Posted by Bowtie

1. By you saying that "Personally, 3D is not even in my top ten list of things I'd add to/subtract from the game, but if it comes, it comes. I'll likely not use it until it gets to the point that it looks like a real game on TV and if it never does, I won't care much" you are indirectly admitting that the developers possibly have misused assets that could be better spent by improving the pre-existing product first - namely the AI.

2. Nobody here is saying that we think the AI is "junk". Only you are saying that. All we are saying is that we think the AI improvements should have come first then perhaps the eye candy graphics.

Bottom line: Do we expect the AI to be perfect? Gee willikers no. But there's always room for improvements though.

I'm not indirectly or directly accusing the developers of "misusing assets." I don't play online, but I realize a large number of the users of this game do, so it's appropriate for the developers to cater to both that community (online gamers) and my community (offline gamers).

I also don't play historical. I play a very narrow game: I set up a MLB league with current players, I add six expansion teams (Brooklyn, Birmingham AL, San Antonio in the AL; Montreal, New Orleans, Salt Lake City in the NL), create fictional players for those six teams, then play out every game in the ML and every minor league game for my chosen franchise (I've been Seattle, Chicago-NL, now Birmingham) and stay as close as I can to the daily schedule for real-life MLB. It takes me an hour or so to play out a day of games, and I start early in the calendar year so that by the time December rolls around, I'm finishing up my World Series. Same deal every year since 1987 on a Commodore 64. I doubt anyone else plays like I do, and I don't care. It's not required that everyone else plays like I do anymore than it's required that I play like THEY do.

As for the AI, here's the problem: It's mostly subjective. Yes, there is the occasional bug -- my league loves to put around 300 players on waivers at the end of April, but no one ever claims anybody and the problem fixes itself a week later -- but as far as the in-game decisions go, there's nothing so egregious that I can't either overlook it, or remember seeing a real-life manager do something just as bad, or worse. When you start trying to demand a company pour all assets into a subjective component of the game, you set up a scenario in which you can always complain and ask for more attention, as what you consider "good-enough AI" is not necessarily what I would consider "good-enough AI."

My list of wants is pretty short. I'd like to be able to call every pitch. I'd like to fix the game's propensity to declare a relief pitcher "tired" if he pitches two days in a row, regardless of pitch count. I'd love to smooth over a few rough edges in the trading system. But since when does hiring a graphics guy mean none of the above gets fixed?

Facegen faces:

• add nothing to gameplay or simulation and is just an eye candy:
• Facegen license costs big junk of money that could be spend to fix AI;
• there are people who turn off Facegen because they don't need it;
• takes time for programming, tuning, adding beard addons and so on -- time that could be spend on AI;
• as some complained looking at OOTP15 preview screenshots, Facegen became worser that before, more cartoonish.

Is Facegen unimprotant? Yes, it doesn't make AI stronger. Does Markus need to delete this part of the game?