Just wanted to say "Thanks", but...

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

Then don't post here. I'm sure you would make us and yourself much happier.

Not cool, dude.

[CD1083]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Not cool, dude.

Vinny likes to treat GD like the OTD Minor Leagues.

Keep up the good work Vinny, you'll work out that kink in your swing

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by spitfire

League association may be far more important to you. That's your opinion, which is fine. To others, customized playoffs etc. are at least as important. Who's to say those people are wrong?

I never said those people are wrong. I'm saying I have yet to hear a good argument for customized playoffs against League Associations. When it comes to time-management, Markus probably will have to choose between one or the other, unless customized playoffs can be done in a day. But I doubt that, because the AI would need to be programmed to be able to handle the strategy of playing double elimination, vs. playing in a best of 5 or 7 game series.

On the other hand, LGO and others have listed many good reasons to include LA. And if you think about it, as I have said, including LA first, would probably give customized playoffs more value down the road anyway.

I haven't seen much in the way of whining in this thread. I've seen people saying simply that they weren't planning to purchase the new version based on the currently listed feature set, and suggesting things they'd like to see in the game. If anything, most all of those people are hoping Markus will give them a reason to purchase by adding stuff to the new features that interests them. I don't call that whining, but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

There was at least one person who was whining the whole time. Nobody else really was.

I must have missed some posts. What good arguments have been made against more customization of the playoffs or variable numbers of innings? Surely there must have been more than "I personally prefer league associations to customized playoffs, therefore Markus should spend his time on league associations and you people should stop whining about the playoffs". That isn't much of an argument.

There were no arguments specifically against customized playoffs and innings, other than the argument of prioritzation. Rather, it should go the other way. There needs to be good arguments for those things. Arguments that are better than the arguments that have been made for LA in order to get higher on the list of priorities.

Nothing wrong with folks doing that. Also nothing wrong with people expressing their opinions in briefer form about what they'd like to see in the game. I don't recall seeing anything from Markus saying that only a detailed analysis of new feature proposals will be considered, though I imagine he must appreciate them when they come in. The forum is about exchanging opinions, and I reckon there must be thousands of posts from people discussing what they'd like to see in the game. Seems a little late now to try and limit that discussion only to detailed proposals, though encouraging those is great too.

I've also never said a person can't make a quick suggestion for a feature they would like to see. But if the said suggestion gets shot down by other people, and those other people give reasons why they shoot it down, perhaps it would be more beneficial to give reasons why it shouldn't be shot down. Constantly hearing, "but it should be in the game because the NCAA use those rules, and because the slogan is "play it your way!"" is not a good enough of a reason for myself and others to not shoot it down again.

If you REALLY REALLY feel as though a feature is worthy enough to be in the game, taking up valuable development time, you have to go beyond a mere suggestion, and a couple of rudimentary arguments for it. I keep talking about LGO, but he did that. Him and I got in a little bit of an argument about the worthiness of LA in the beta forum at one point. Not just him and I, but most of the beta team got involved in that one. I just remember LGO, because he was the one that drew up some pretty elaborate posts, specifying many good reason, and examples of how and why it could improve the OOTP.

Also, you should realize there is quite an extensive list of requests that OOTPD has from the community. The list is pretty damned huge. And each request is given a priority number. Out of the thousands of requests that are on that list, what makes customized innings stand out from the crowd? THAT'S what I am looking for in this conversation. "Just because it is used on some occasions for some leagues" is one argument for it. But that argument does not stand out from the crowd. "It could be easy to build" is an even better argument for it, if it shouldn't take up much development time to implement.

So yeah, I kind of do see people saying "I am not buying the game if it isn't going to get in" as on the verge of whining if they say it more than one time.

Sorry, I must be missing something. Why don't customized playoffs hold much value without league associations? I don't actually see what one has to do with the other. The game encourages people to set up fantasy baseball universes. It says so right on the home page ("create your fictional baseball universe"). Okay, I want to have a fictional league where the division winners get a 1st round bye. The game currently doesn't allow this. I wish it did. What has that got to do with league associations, and why doesn't my idea hold much value? This may be obvious to you, but I'm not seeing it.

I didn't feel like explaining it before, but I shall clarify since you asked.

As it currently stands, each level of baseball league in this game can only have two "sub leagues." Realistically, most leagues that operate on this system play a "best of" series. Like the MLB currently does. Double elimination wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for leagues that operate with two "subleagues."

However, when you have a situation like the NCAA, high school baseball, Little League....pretty much every amateur league in existence in which you have many different "leagues," sometimes in the hundreds; and in the case of Little League, in the thousands; in which they are loosely associated with each other, then a playoff system using Round Robin or Double Elimination makes much more sense. Without League Associations in OOTP to allow those situations first, I just do not see those playoff types as having a whole lot of value, or making a whole lot of sense.

Diamond Mind Baseball has a playoff system where the user is presented with blank boxes for each team in each playoff round. He's asked to select the team that goes in each box from a drop down menu of league teams. If OOTP could simply institute something along these lines as an option (as opposed to automating the playoffs and not allowing the user to easily choose the teams involved in any round), a lot of the customization grousing for the playoffs would go away. Ask the user how many playoff rounds he wants and what format each series should take (22111, 232 etc) (DMB allows a different home/away format for each round). Create a tree for said number of rounds with the ability to select any league team for each slot. Instant 1st round byes. Once the 1st round is done, you select the teams for the 2nd round. And so on. It's a pretty simple system really. I made the same suggestion some years ago. If that constitutes whining, I do apologize .......

First, I would like to say, certainly you do not come off as whining at all. At least you are engaging me, and making good, clear arguments and stating your case.

Now, that's a good idea for when it does get instituted in the game. But as it stands, without LA first, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to allow the user to choose which team plays against another team. Usually that is decided automatically with seeding rules in place when you have a two sub league structure in place.

Yes, people should be able to play their universe how they want. But you have to think through the process of how the majority of players like to play. The majority of players like to play in a realistic fashion. Creating LA in OOTP allows for far more flexibility in how leagues can be run, using just about any real-world league as an example outside of the MLB and professional baseball. Then double elimination and round robin and so forth will hold a much greater value to the game than without LA.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Not cool, dude.

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

Vinny likes to treat GD like the OTD Minor Leagues.

Keep up the good work Vinny, you'll work out that kink in your swing

heh, I was merely stating the facts. He's the only one that came into this thread slinging mud, then cries when someone pushes back. lol.

[Le Grande Orange]

In regards to playoff customizability, I'll point out once again I have already put forward a detailed and thorough customization system proposal* during beta a couple of years ago. It included byes, double elimination, and even round-robin possibilities. The only thing it didn't include were certain specialized formats (e.g. the Korean Baseball Organization's staggered playoff system) that I couldn't figure out how to put within the user-driven menu selection system I was proposing, and other specialized formats that I wasn't aware of at the time.

The customizability in playoffs that are currently in the game are the rudimentary version of that proposal. There was simply far too much for Markus to put it in at one go.

So, in summary, the road map to nearly total playoff customization is there. It's a matter of the rest of the system being prioritized in terms of when it might be implemented (assuming there are certain coding issues related to it that might make implementing it difficult).


*The proposal document ran thirty pages. Though about half of that was taken up with screenshots illustrating examples of how different playoff formats could be created.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In regards to playoff customizability, I'll point out once again I have already put forward a detailed and thorough customization system proposal* during beta a couple of years ago. It included byes, double elimination, and even round-robin possibilities. The only thing it didn't include were certain specialized formats (e.g. the Korean Baseball Organization's staggered playoff system) that I couldn't figure out how to put within the user-driven menu selection system I was proposing, and other specialized formats that I wasn't aware of at the time.

The customizability in playoffs that are currently in the game are the rudimentary version of that proposal. There was simply far too much for Markus to put it in at one go.

So, in summary, the road map to nearly total playoff customization is there. It's a matter of the rest of the system being prioritized in terms of when it might be implemented (assuming there are certain coding issues related to it that might make implementing it difficult).


*The proposal document ran thirty pages. Though about half of that was taken up with screenshots illustrating examples of how different playoff formats could be created.

Think you could find the link, and post it here? That would be nice, that way this thread has some REAL arguments that make the case for customizable playoff. As it currently stands, the arguments taht have been made thus far have been rather weak.

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In regards to playoff customizability, I'll point out once again I have already put forward a detailed and thorough customization system proposal* during beta a couple of years ago....

*The proposal document ran thirty pages. Though about half of that was taken up with screenshots illustrating examples of how different playoff formats could be created.

And I was one of the proponents of that. All I have been asking Markus to do is let my edit the post-season schedule, basically let me assign the games and teams in those games each day and then have the engine keep up with the results. Rinse and repeat until I have a champion.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

But that's what it has grown into over the years. OOTP 6.5 and earlier had very little depth compared to OOTP 9, X, XI, and XII. If you recall, OOTP 6.5 and earlier had no real minor leagues. Just A, AA, and AAA, and each team could only have a single team per minor level. I don't think it had foreign leagues, either....

In comparison to the later versions, yes, earlier versions of OOTP did not have much depth. But they were and are infinitely customizable.

I was creating and enjoying multinational and foreign leagues as far back as the STB days. And I *still* play a couple of foreign leagues in OOTP5, which loads quickly and is therefore perfect for when I want a quick baseball management game fix. The three levels of minor leagues are quite enough. I have custom-made name files, logos, and even pictures of my fictional players.

[Dreifort]

You know why I give money to guys like Markus & Co.?

It's not for the current release features... it's in hope that my money/investment will help these guys make the game better in future releases. My purchase is an investment on OOTP's future.

I don't buy every release, but my reasons for not purchasing some releases is my time to invest into the game comes and goes.

Everybody is entitled to their own investment and opinion... but I don't see how making a political or protesting statement against a software company is going to make any difference -- especially when posted in their own forums? The only thing that accomplishes is dividing the community by starting debates.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Dreifort

You know why I give money to guys like Markus & Co.?

It's not for the current release features... it's in hope that my money/investment will help these guys make the game better in future releases. My purchase is an investment on OOTP's future.

I don't buy every release, but my reasons for not purchasing some releases is my time to invest into the game comes and goes.

Everybody is entitled to their own investment and opinion... but I don't see how making a political or protesting statement against a software company is going to make any difference -- especially when posted in their own forums? The only thing that accomplishes is dividing the community by starting debates.

Well, I'm not against dividing the community if it's a worthwhile issue on which to do it (graphics comes to mind) but some of the stuff is petty at best.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by Dreifort

You know why I give money to guys like Markus & Co.?

It's not for the current release features... it's in hope that my money/investment will help these guys make the game better in future releases. My purchase is an investment on OOTP's future.

I don't buy every release, but my reasons for not purchasing some releases is my time to invest into the game comes and goes.

Everybody is entitled to their own investment and opinion... but I don't see how making a political or protesting statement against a software company is going to make any difference -- especially when posted in their own forums? The only thing that accomplishes is dividing the community by starting debates.

I'm really confused about this post.

First he says he gives money to OOTPD to help with future releases.

Then he says he doesn't buy every year for reasons of his own.

Then he knocks others who don't buy every year for reasons of their own.

Or maybe I read it wrong.

[Dreifort]

Originally Posted by rich12545

I'm really confused about this post.

First he says he gives money to OOTPD to help with future releases.

Then he says he doesn't buy every year for reasons of his own.

Then he knocks others who don't buy every year for reasons of their own.

Or maybe I read it wrong.

I had 2 pts in my post.

1. I don't purchase OOTP for it's current release... I see it as an investment (when I have enough free time to play OOTP)

2. Posting publicly in a software (or any company's) forum for protesting or political type motivation is not the ideal place. It does more harm than good imo.

[griffeyin98]

Originally Posted by fhomess

And this would be why I hardly ever go to the theater anymore.

People have a right to do what they want with their money when it comes to OOTP. EVERY iteration of OOTP has had people, including long time fans of the series, drop out. Some come back in a year or two, some don't. I suspect Markus and the rest of the development team are smart enough to look at their sales figures each year and figure out if their approach needs adjusting.

Personally, I like OOTP, but the new features in OOTP12 made me seriously consider not buying it. I'm just not that impressed with the improvements list this year, they seem largely like baby steps rather than significant additions. To me, the 25% discount was a way to entice me to up for another year.

As a commish, the online features by them selves are enough to buy the new version.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by Dreifort

I had 2 pts in my post.

1. I don't purchase OOTP for it's current release... I see it as an investment (when I have enough free time to play OOTP)

2. Posting publicly in a software (or any company's) forum for protesting or political type motivation is not the ideal place. It does more harm than good imo.

I guess that's why I was confused. I didn't see anyone protesting politically or otherwise. There have been several who said, simply, that there aren't enough new features over and above what they already have for them to plunk down their hard earned money. Where's the protest?

Originally Posted by griffeyin98

As a commish, the online features by them selves are enough to buy the new version.

And what if you never play online and have no desire to?

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Vinny, every time you post, the final answer to this thread is right there before our very eyes!

* "it" is whatever the hell he prefers!

Endless debate threads like this one become mere sophistry once this is realized.

Duh! I should have just hit the little blue arrow in that sig. In about almost exactly 10 hours from now, it will be exactly one year from the time those words were sent on their way to the server this message board is on.

And yes. It was an even more pathetic debate than this one. One in which 220 people actually took the time out to not only read, but to vote on.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2904038

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

Duh! I should have just hit the little blue arrow in that sig. In about almost exactly 10 hours from now, it will be exactly one year from the time those words were sent on their way to the server this message board is on.

And yes. It was an even more pathetic debate than this one. One in which 220 people actually took the time out to not only read, but to vote on.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2904038

The words "colour of the bikeshed" apply to discussions like that I think.

Although his preferred option actually won without his vote anyway.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The words "colour of the bikeshed" apply to discussions like that I think.

Although his preferred option actually won without his vote anyway.

I only heard that expression once in my life. And that was in school in psychology class.

I think a lot of people changed their votes after Markus's input. Or else n00bs to that thread read his input first, before voting, then voted with Markus.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Dreifort

You know why I give money to guys like Markus & Co.?

It's not for the current release features... it's in hope that my money/investment will help these guys make the game better in future releases. My purchase is an investment on OOTP's future.

I don't buy every release, but my reasons for not purchasing some releases is my time to invest into the game comes and goes.

Everybody is entitled to their own investment and opinion... but I don't see how making a political or protesting statement against a software company is going to make any difference -- especially when posted in their own forums? The only thing that accomplishes is dividing the community by starting debates.

Where should one post about dissatisfaction with a company's product, if not the forums provided by that company?

Is debate bad?

[griffeyin98]

Originally Posted by rich12545

And what if you never play online and have no desire to?

Then there's not much reason to update, even more so if you play with fictional rosters. Then you should find a version you're comfortable with results wise and keep using it

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by griffeyin98

Then there's not much reason to update

False. There are a lot of reasons to upgrade, just check the feature list in the newsletter... some of the new features may not seem big, but overall they influence the gameplay a lot and improve the fun & realism factor considerably, IMO