First Impressions

[Rondo_GE]

Downloaded and bought this game a few days ago. Thumbs up so far.

I remember playing the board version of this game in the 1980's. I must say it has evolved quite a bit. It's nice to see that the art of the boxing sim has not completely faded from the market.

Two things and a wish...

I had a hard time relating to the graphics. Ring movement needs to be represented in this game as I think it would add a lot to the visual experience. Boxing is as much a visual sport as it is a statistical one. More frames and smoother animation are needed too. SSI published an imitation of this game (well the board game) some years back in DOS version and while thier animations were just silhouettes they added a lot to game content.

The next item is a simple thing but I think there is a problem with the "date" system when you make a title match. I think two rules need to be coded into the date field...

1) That a current title holder cannot hold a title defense "before" their last title defense (unless the feature is unlocked for some reason but I can't see why it should be).

2) That you can import the latest date being used in the "auto scheduler" to the date field of the Title defense so that Title Defenses can by held more or less around the same time that you are scheduling non title fights.

The problem is that if you set a title date for a given date it does not remember that date as the last time you contested the title; Title Date field automatically uses the start date you set at the beginning of the game. If you forget to manually advance the date logically from the time of the last defense you sort of ruin your title history because you will have Title bouts being fought by champions and challengers before they won the title.

Wish:
I'd like to be able to "move the camera" up and down in future versions of this game and animations that represent ring movement.

[Bonedwarf]

Don't want much do you?

Seriously, from what I remember, the graphic engine will be much improved with the next version.

[wildhawke11]

Rondo
Hello and welcome to our little home here
One of the problems is with TBCB is. It is first and foremost a text simulation of pro boxing. In the board game as you well know the fight really was all in your mind. You could see Ali in your head doing his little shuffle as Marciano with blood pouring from the cuts over his eyes desperately trying to land the one blow that could change the whole outcome of the fight.

No amount of moving pics can ever match or come up to the picture we have in our minds. As Andrea's pointed out once, the work involved to get more frames of the fighters is a hell of a big job and very time consuming. Plus the better the pics get the problem is the text in turn starts becoming very secondary. In my humble opinion and for me anyway the picture of the fight in my head would then be gone.

If they were a bigger company like EA with millions of dollars and had lots of programmers and could afford to spend the time giving us really great realistic looking pics of the fighters then yes, but that's another story.

As Bonedwarf said though, the next version should have some improvements in the graphic dept.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Rondo_GE

I had a hard time relating to the graphics. Ring movement needs to be represented in this game as I think it would add a lot to the visual experience. Boxing is as much a visual sport as it is a statistical one. More frames and smoother animation are needed too. ..

Wish:
I'd like to be able to "move the camera" up and down in future versions of this game and animations that represent ring movement.

IMHO, being able to move the camera would not add anything to the game. I very much prefer TBCB to focus on being a text-based sim. When I run a fight, I prefer to read the text and do not concentrate much on the animation.

Spending more development time on system-hogging eye candy would, IMHO, mean less time spent on other aspects of boxing simulation and less time on the eventual role-play version. I love TBCB because it's a hard-core boxing sim that is also nice to look at. To me the graphics are just fine. I can use my imagination to supplement the existing fight animation. When I play TBCB I really get lost in the game, and you can't ask for more than that.

If the Trunzos start yelling "we're going 3D!!!" I will seriously wonder what aspects of hard core boxing simulation they are leaving out or skimping on.

In future versions I would prefer more ways to sort data, more ways to set up fights with the automatic scheduler, more varied fight commentary, a realistic fatigue model, a realistic aging model (a customizable aging "filter" would be great, since not everybody wants to use aging in their universes), a more realistic representation of the effects of injuries, and lots and lots of options for creating and running a "gym."

About the only new graphical option I would kind of like to see would be a random face generator for use creating fictional universes. But that's not a priority for me.

[CONN CHRIS]

I couldn't agree with you more Antonin. Even the whole skin-tone thing seems like a bit of a waste to me. With the ability to add pictures, small time-consuming nuances are a bit moot in my opinion. I do understand however the potential need to add bells and whistles that may atract a wider audience, that may make the program more financialy viable.

So, I supose a bit of the "eye candy" should be encouraged by us as long as the text-based sim features remain strong.

CONN

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I couldn't agree with you more Antonin. Even the whole skin-tone thing seems like a bit of a waste to me. With the ability to add pictures, small time-consuming nuances are a bit moot in my opinion. I do understand however the potential need to add bells and whistles that may atract a wider audience, that may make the program more financialy viable.

So, I supose a bit of the "eye candy" should be encouraged by us as long as the text-based sim features remain strong.

CONN

I find that it's very hard to follow the text and the animation at the same time.

I agree with you on the skin color issue. I think the existing figures abstract things rather nicely. One guy could kind of pass for white, and one guy could kind of pass for black or Hispanic or some other variety of non-white. It's fine the way it is.

I might watch 20-30 fights per gaming session, and spending time choosing the properly pigmented fighter to accompany the fight is something I just don't care to do. And I don't want the developers spending time trying to program the game to choose the fighter's skin color automatically.

When discussing graphical options one thing we have to consider is what kind of game TBCB is trying to be and what market its developers are writing code for.

I have nothing against arcade boxing games or "action" boxing games, but I don't want TBCB to become one of them. I care about stats more than I care about animation.

[Rondo_GE]

Well thanks for the welcome. Sorry I appear to have a minority opinion here so far. I feel compelled to explain my logic though.

I'm not looking for motion capture here fellas. I just want the visual aspect of the game to at the very least to be representative of the action taking place. There are inexpensive alternatives to the kind of graphics EA puts out. I mentioned one. I was just testing the waters with the "scrolling camera"...an overhead view would do just fine.

I had a chance to buy this game some years ago when it was nothing more than a ticker tape scrolling dialogue...text based as it were. I got the demo and lost interest. Why? Well almost every statistical game I have ever played had some visual represetation of the action taking place and that includes Lance Hafner and Stratomatic...I worked for Stratomatic's Hal Richmond in Great neck (my dad was a printer who printed parts of the game) and play tested it. These games were heavy in stats...very heavy.

I have also played the Titlebout board game years and years ago. The locations of the fighters were represented there as I recall on the ring in the center of the board. Another words I want this game to be as good as that during gametime.

For my money this is not really "eye candy"...it is important. There are plenty of statistics in Titlebout. More than enough to keep any accountant happy. If that is the only group of people they want to appeal to I say all well and good but I would maintain that those folks are not exactly the same group of people who were attracted to the board game. At least not if I am any example. But it's not my place to market the game, I'm just a customer who tells you what he wants.

I'm not picky really. I've thorughly enjoyed football simulations that had nothing but X's and O's for graphics...but they were accurate. The ball was lined up in the middle or to the left/right of the hashmark. In football that determined the weak and strong side. The ball advanced the right amount of yards on the screen. You didn't have to scroll back text to figure out where you were. It worked for me and few could gripe since they were accuate representations of the game.

But the visual action in this game that takes place at the very center of the screen where psychologically it must (in a normal person) dominate, is not accurate. Heck the sound of the crowd seems to be quite an acheivement and I rely on that more than the pictures in some cases. This is the mental pupil of all activity and IMHO needs to be accurate to a point or it can take on a comical aspect that detracts from the experience when you have a "Black" Rocky Marciano vs a "White" Sam Langford (or whoever) fighting in the middle of the ring while the announcer is telling me Marciano is trapped in the corner. (By the way I see the fighter to the left as "white" and the bald headed guy as "black").

Just my two cents on that.

[Rondo_GE]

The other thing I want to say is don't mind me if I ask for a few things. Some of them may seem grandiose but I don't know the technical side of the business well enough to understand what is doable and what is not. I'll leave that up to the DEVs to decide.

I understand they are going to try for a "career mode" in this game int he next version. Well that certainly sounds interesting I wouldn't mind that at all.

[mh2365]

Couple of things Rondo ... welcome to the board and the game. I'm not on either side of the graphics fence. But to be honest I almost never watch the animations, but it would be nice if the skin color matched up.

I would like different voices for the ring announcers but that's just eye candy also.

The career mode will be in Title Bout Role Playing (TBRP) which will be an entirely different game then TBCB2. From my understanding 2 will be out sometime in 2005 and TBRP will be out after that. I would be shocked if we saw TBRP in 2005, but that's an opinion of mine.

The programmers take their time with their games and it pays off. The original release was one of the most completed text sim games ever. Usually, in my experience, most text sims are barely playable until you get to the 3rd or 4th patch, but TB was playable from the word go.

Please throw out your suggestions the programmers listen and generally try to input ideas that are in the majority.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I would like different voices for the ring announcers but that's just eye candy also.

That's eye (ear?) candy that I wouldn't mind seeing (hearing?), but it's not that high on my list.

The guy who did the voice did a fine job, but I've always thought the announcer should sound more like Burgess Meredith..something along those lines. Really!

[CONN CHRIS]

Check out the announer they used on that Newsboy Brown site I mentioned in a thread a week or so ago Antonin. It's right up your alley (and mine too).

[Cap]

I found myself torn between the two sides of the graphics/animation debate. Boxing is such a visual sport I'd love to be able to see the two guys battling it out, but if it can't be done right, then forget it. Maybe do away with visuals all together and improve the sounds and commentary. The latter still needs more variety. I agree with you guys about the announcer too. Maybe they should ask the community to record their own calls and submit them for selection in the game.

[Antonin]

Another great voice for a TBCB announcer would have been Red, the guy in those old "Tube Bar" prank phone call tapes.

Some of you may remember the infamous "Tube Bar" recordings. Back during the late 1970s or early 1980s (?) some guys made prank calls to this bar called the Tube Bar and taped the angry and extremely funny reactions of Red, the bar's owner. The guy had a voice like...well, let's just say he would have been perfect as a longshoreman in some dive of a bar in a movie set in the 1930s.

[Cap]

Is that where they got the idea for Moe the bartender in the Simpsons?

[Rondo_GE]

I think it most certainly can be done right. I am not a programmer but I work with them all the time (I used to be a Systems Analyst before I got kicked upstairs). There is no way anyone is going to tell me that.

It seems to me the issue is really how much effort it would take and just how much that would detract from other things being worked on that people also want. Otherwise I find it hard to believe that the majority of boxing fans do not appreciate the visual aspect of the game.

If nothing else at the very least a representation in some way of where the fighters actually are in the ring other than having to scroll text around and watching a stop action image which doesn't change position.

[Rondo_GE]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Couple of things Rondo ... welcome to the board and the game. I'm not on either side of the graphics fence. But to be honest I almost never watch the animations, but it would be nice if the skin color matched up.

I would like different voices for the ring announcers but that's just eye candy also.

The career mode will be in Title Bout Role Playing (TBRP) which will be an entirely different game then TBCB2. From my understanding 2 will be out sometime in 2005 and TBRP will be out after that. I would be shocked if we saw TBRP in 2005, but that's an opinion of mine.

The programmers take their time with their games and it pays off. The original release was one of the most completed text sim games ever. Usually, in my experience, most text sims are barely playable until you get to the 3rd or 4th patch, but TB was playable from the word go.

Please throw out your suggestions the programmers listen and generally try to input ideas that are in the majority.

Thanks for joining in mh2365...I'm always game for a lively debate especially if it hashes out some stuff.

Actually you are right...I don't look at them much either (or rather stopped looking at them after my first few fights) but I think the argument there breaks down into a tautology that produces a judgement error in the value of the feature. Are we not looking at them because we normally wouldn’t or are we not looking at them because they are not completely relevant to the simulation? I think if they were made more relevant to the simulation I believe we would look at them and the game experience would be enhanced in the same way the game experience is enhanced with the better sound.

I suppose "eye" candy is all they will be for now because the basic ring strategies offered do not cover ring movement or (and maybe I am wrong here) for advantages some fighters demonstrate when they have forced an opponent into their own corner. I also noted that there are no ring instructions like "stay off the ropes" or "stay in the middle of the ring" which are very common instructions on breaks. That though is being true to the old board game I played a long time ago.

[Cap]

I may be wrong, but it seems like a central issue here is what camp do you belong to? One faction wants to influence/control a fighter in the ring, and the other wants to be the promoter/manager of fighters. I fall in the second group. Each faction is made up of smaller groups too.

I don't really care where the fighter is in the ring because I don't issue commands from the corner. I just arrange the bouts and let them go. I'm interested in the battle in the ring and want that to be depicted realistically through sounds and commentary. That's why I suggested the grey figures behind the text. You'd get a feeling of action from their movement and still have that mental picture from the text.

Everyone has his own ideas of how to improve the game. Based on past experience, I don't think it's possible or even desirous to try and please everyone.

Cap

[Rondo_GE]

Originally Posted by Cap

I may be wrong, but it seems like a central issue here is what camp do you belong to? One faction wants to influence/control a fighter in the ring, and the other wants to be the promoter/manager of fighters. I fall in the second group. Each faction is made up of smaller groups too.

I don't really care where the fighter is in the ring because I don't issue commands from the corner. I just arrange the bouts and let them go. I'm interested in the battle in the ring and want that to be depicted realistically through sounds and commentary. That's why I suggested the grey figures behind the text. You'd get a feeling of action from their movement and still have that mental picture from the text.

Everyone has his own ideas of how to improve the game. Based on past experience, I don't think it's possible or even desirous to try and please everyone.

Cap

Uhhh hmm...

Actually I would fall into the second camp myself. Having better graphics does not mean I support a first person perspective like 4D Boxing or some of those other arcade style games.

While I have not really requested it introducing two common instructions made by managers in the corner like advising their fighter to stay of the ropes or stay in the middle (actually that is just ONE instruction said two different ways) would certainly not compel the game designer to change the basic perspective of the game. I most certainly wouldn't want that.

I think the push for better ring side graphics, at least in my case, is probably coming from the well known fact that a majority of people process information visually first. It's dominant. If the majority of peole are watching the script being played and just glancing at the graphics they are probably doing things in reverse. The cognitive effect reminds me of the feeling I have when watching a foreign language film and reading subtitles.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Rondo_GE

If the majority of peole are watching the script being played and just glancing at the graphics they are probably doing things in reverse.

So I guess I'm doing things in reverse.

I find it very difficult to watch the TBCB animation and read the text at the same time.

However, I do not have any problems reading the subtitles when I watch non-English language films.

[chaleyit]

Well here I come with my two cents. First of all welcom to the world of TBCB. Glad to see our little family is growning. As for the graphics, I am with Danny, I don't think they can come up graphics to compare with my imagination. I don't even need the graphics they have now. I liked the graphics in the old APBA Title Fight, when the figures accurately displayed ring position (from an over head perspective). In the old board game plastic pegs were used to depict ring position if you played the advancecd version. Even the static background of TFCB1 was better in that I could concentrate on the text and let my imagination take me to ring side. I too wish the skin color would be more accurate if they just have to have graphics.

I doubt that I will purchase the role play version as that does not interest me. I simply want to be able to conduct fights and have results as accurate as possible.

In my opinion the push for graphics reflects changes in our society. I am from an era when there were no video games and we had to use our imagination as kids. As a kid a broom became a horse and a stick became a six gun. I remember formulating entire stories with plastic army men that were inanimate. Today I think there is a decline in imagination with the advent of video games that show you everything. In my day it was the Strat-O-Matic type board games. I played those games for hours and needed no graphics, in my head were packed stadiums with the crowds cheering to a deafening pitch. I would envision Willie Mays running, "back, back, way back, he leaps, and what a tremendous catch!!" I have not seen any grapics that could replicate the pictures in my mind. Now days it is all layed out for people.