So you think when Bonds breaks the HR record, the headline will be... - Page 2

UngratefulDead · 11-16-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog55

You're right. He simply suddenly became the greatest player ever to walk the earth at the age of 35. The first 15 years were just building up to that.

A few problems, first of all, he was damn good even before the age of 35. Another, steroids don't improve your discipline. Plenty of baseball players take steroids (THAT is a fact, unlike your conjecture), they don't all break records left and right.

UngratefulDead · 11-16-2004, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Fair question. I believe, with a certain rose-tint, that he hasnt taken steroids- I believe that post 2001 he's gone crazy with his workout regime, and just evolved into a ridiculously disciplined hitter. From what I can tell, a lot of the BALCO stuff is conjecture and seems to have more headlines than anything else- though I agree there is some stuff that comes across as potentially incriminating. The head crap is ridiculous- countless people have pointed the nature of it. The guy did adopt Jerry Rice's training regime- which by all accounts, most people in the NFL wouldnt keep up with. Im not willing to convict anyone on the basis of conjecute , be it Bonds or Giambi or whoever- I'd like proof. Fundementally, I can't see a guy who was the best player of the 90's by an objective measure resorting to something like that- but that is an opinion, and I like to think I seperate that opinion out when making a judgement on the facts at hand.

Bravo, well said.

bulldog55 · 11-16-2004, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

A few problems, first of all, he was damn good even before the age of 35. Another, steroids don't improve your discipline. Plenty of baseball players take steroids (THAT is a fact, unlike your conjecture), they don't all break records left and right.

I've never called him an untalented hitter. He has always been a very good hitter. But forgive me if something doesn't seem right when you double your career average homerun total at the age of 35, all while a huge steroid scandal centered on YOUR TRAINER breaks.

sebastian0622 · 11-16-2004, 06:46 PM

Only when Bonds collapses and dies at age 47, after hitting his 914th home run earlier in the day, weighing 286 pounds and having a head the size of a basketball, will people finally accept that he's roided out of his mind.

GForce · 11-16-2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Fair question. I believe, with a certain rose-tint, that he hasnt taken steroids- I believe that post 2001 he's gone crazy with his workout regime, and just evolved into a ridiculously disciplined hitter. From what I can tell, a lot of the BALCO stuff is conjecture and seems to have more headlines than anything else- though I agree there is some stuff that comes across as potentially incriminating. The head crap is ridiculous- countless people have pointed the nature of it. The guy did adopt Jerry Rice's training regime- which by all accounts, most people in the NFL wouldnt keep up with. Im not willing to convict anyone on the basis of conjecute , be it Bonds or Giambi or whoever- I'd like proof. Fundementally, I can't see a guy who was the best player of the 90's by an objective measure resorting to something like that- but that is an opinion, and I like to think I seperate that opinion out when making a judgement on the facts at hand.

We agree to disagree on it...I was just curious as I said because I'd never seen you actually address that point.

I tend to think he's done steroids in recent years in addition to working out like a fiend. The steroids thing bothers me and taints things in my eyes, but the "I could do it too" stuff is just silly.

GH

Anachronism · 11-16-2004, 07:26 PM

LOL... Bonds TRAINER is out there saying he took them, there are order forms for him out there, his stas are a aberation against how many THOUSANDS of baseball players before him that show a steady decline by the time players hit his age - and people still believe that he "is just really good at working out?" You get to a point in age when no matter how much you work out you are really fighting TO KEEP WHAT YOU'VE GOT - not continually get better. It amazes me that despite the evidence out there, people still refuse the even accept even in the slightest that this guy is juiced....

I guess when Bonds body starts the melt down and disintigrate in the near future it will be interesting to see him argue the point still... because not only will he have to explain to the world... but also to his children that he loves to parade into the media and use as a shield... "think about my children before your write I'm on steriods because it isn't good for them to read that about their dad" (paraphrased of course)- well, then what about explaining to them why you've lied for all those years?

EDIT: ungreatful dead - I don't think people discount your opinion, but they do take it with a grain of salt. You are from the bay area, so your objectivity is to be called into question. Nothing against you personally, but you see it all the time in sports. Poll 100 people outside of Vancouver, for example, and I guess that 90% will tell you that the punishment given to Bertuzzi was warranted - ask 100 people living in Vancouver and I assure you that percentage will be significantly lower. It's called "being a fan" and it has been known to jade people's views at times!!

Bluenoser · 11-16-2004, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

his stas are a aberation against how many THOUSANDS of baseball players before him that show a steady decline by the time players hit his age

Hmmmm, Roger Clemens must be taking steroids too, because there's just no way he could still be winning Cy Young Awards at the age of 41.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

You get to a point in age when no matter how much you work out you are really fighting TO KEEP WHAT YOU'VE GOT - not continually get better.

Absolutely agree with you, but it doesn't happen in your mid to late 30's, especially not in this day and age of training technology and workout regimes that people put themselves through.

UngratefulDead · 11-16-2004, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

I guess when Bonds body starts the melt down and disintigrate in the near future it will be interesting to see him argue the point still... because not only will he have to explain to the world... but also to his children that he loves to parade into the media and use as a shield... "think about my children before your write I'm on steriods because it isn't good for them to read that about their dad" (paraphrased of course)- well, then what about explaining to them why you've lied for all those years?

I like how you bring this up, Bonds, who stays in incredible shape and NEVER gets injured.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anachronism

EDIT: ungreatful dead - I don't think people discount your opinion, but they do take it with a grain of salt. You are from the bay area, so your objectivity is to be called into question. Nothing against you personally, but you see it all the time in sports. Poll 100 people outside of Vancouver, for example, and I guess that 90% will tell you that the punishment given to Bertuzzi was warranted - ask 100 people living in Vancouver and I assure you that percentage will be significantly lower. It's called "being a fan" and it has been known to jade people's views at times!!

How does my being a Giants fan disqualify my opinion any more than the fact that you AREN'T a Giants fan?

BaseballMan · 11-16-2004, 08:09 PM

I dont think Bonds took steroids unless it was in something he didnt know about.
I agree with Aadik.
Look at players we know took steroids and how long did their careers last?
From what ive read steroids makes you much more injury prone.
Bonds had that great home run season but the rest of his career his total has been like Aaron's in that he has constitently avg in the 40's since moving to San Fran. Is it a crime to get fat. Getting bigger doesnt mean your on steroids. Most people get bigger as they get older. H edidnt just get bigger overnight.

But the biggest reason i dont think he took steroids is because i dont beleive steroids would help him hit the ball. I think it would actually hurt his performance. Because one of Bond's greatest talent is having the quick hands and quick eye. It takes him a lot less than other players to see the ball, know where he wants to swing and execute that swing.

Anachronism · 11-16-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

How does my being a Giants fan disqualify my opinion any more than the fact that you AREN'T a Giants fan?

I explained that in my post... read it again... OH, and no where did I say that it DISQUALIFIES your opinion... I said it makes other take it with a grain of salt (again... try reading my post

)

Crapshoot · 11-16-2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

I explained that in my post... read it again... OH, and no where did I say that it DISQUALIFIES your opinion... I said it makes other take it with a grain of salt (again... try reading my post

)

perhaps with the same grain of salt taken for someone who posts half-hearted conjectures based primarily in innunedo, and does not complete sentences ?

GForce · 11-16-2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

innunedo

Didn't they open for Menudo?

GH

UngratefulDead · 11-16-2004, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

I explained that in my post... read it again... OH, and no where did I say that it DISQUALIFIES your opinion... I said it makes other take it with a grain of salt (again... try reading my post

)

Look, I'm just not clear as to why my being a Giants fan causes a bias but you not being a Giants fan doesn't make you biased as well...

Anachronism · 11-16-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

perhaps with the same grain of salt taken for someone who posts half-hearted conjectures based primarily in innunedo, and does not complete sentences ?

Hey... what you see as conjecture many are seeing as credible evidence. It's all in your own point of view. As since when does posting on this site require anyone here to use proper English. There are broken sentances and grammatical errors all over the place. As is often said, it is a pretty weak argument when people have to play the "grammar" card....

Anachronism · 11-16-2004, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

Look, I'm just not clear as to why my being a Giants fan causes a bias but you not being a Giants fan doesn't make you biased as well...

It is simple - I don't dislike the Giants. I am not ambivalent towards them. I also don't give a care about Bonds. So one can argue that I can look objectively at the stories/news article/etc. Being a Giants fan there is the argument that you are too close to the situation.

I can't believe you honestly don't understand the point I'm making here... Go back and read the Vancouver example again, because you know it is true, and nothing you can say will change the fact that "homers" exist.

Again, I'm not saying your point of view is invalid, what I said was that many will take it with a grain of salt because of you being a fan of the team. It is a subtle yet distinct difference....

blackamus · 11-16-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

But the biggest reason i dont think he took steroids is because i dont beleive steroids would help him hit the ball. I think it would actually hurt his performance. Because one of Bond's greatest talent is having the quick hands and quick eye. It takes him a lot less than other players to see the ball, know where he wants to swing and execute that swing.

That is close to my opinion. I don't believe that being physically strong is that much of an aid to hitting a baseball.

Sweeney29 · 11-16-2004, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YankeePride

How about when Bonds is one homerun away from Aaron.

"Aaron asterisk of being passed by Bonds"

LOL, that's great!

UngratefulDead · 11-16-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

It is simple - I don't dislike the Giants. I am not ambivalent towards them.

If you don't dislike then and you aren't ambivalent about them, I'm not sure what options that remains, other than being a fan.

And, I wasn't saying you disliked the Giants, only that you disliked Barry Bonds, though I admit i worded it inappropriately.

Sweeney29 · 11-16-2004, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronism

It is simple - I don't dislike the Giants. I am not ambivalent towards them.

Anachronism · 11-16-2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

If you don't dislike then and you aren't ambivalent about them, I'm not sure what options that remains, other than being a fan.

apathy remains....

The only teams I have any "feeling" towards are:

Blue Jays - Big Fan
Expos - Fan - I will transfer that to Washington though, as I was once the owner of a Washington franchise is a sim league for ages

Houston - Like
Seattle - Like
Los Angeles - Like
Milwaulkee - dislike
Atlanta - dislike
Yankees - dislike

the only team that has change a bit is Boston.. who I liked for a long while (big Ted Williams fan) until a few years ago... in which they started to irk me, but after reading "Red Sox Century" this past year (my dad, a Blue Jays/Boston fan, lent it to me) I have begun to like them again.

All the other teams are just there to watch when I can. Don't really care if they win or lose...

11-16-2004, 07:26 PM	#26
Anachronism All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great White North Posts: 945	LOL... Bonds TRAINER is out there saying he took them, there are order forms for him out there, his stas are a aberation against how many THOUSANDS of baseball players before him that show a steady decline by the time players hit his age - and people still believe that he "is just really good at working out?" You get to a point in age when no matter how much you work out you are really fighting TO KEEP WHAT YOU'VE GOT - not continually get better. It amazes me that despite the evidence out there, people still refuse the even accept even in the slightest that this guy is juiced.... I guess when Bonds body starts the melt down and disintigrate in the near future it will be interesting to see him argue the point still... because not only will he have to explain to the world... but also to his children that he loves to parade into the media and use as a shield... "think about my children before your write I'm on steriods because it isn't good for them to read that about their dad" (paraphrased of course)- well, then what about explaining to them why you've lied for all those years? EDIT: ungreatful dead - I don't think people discount your opinion, but they do take it with a grain of salt. You are from the bay area, so your objectivity is to be called into question. Nothing against you personally, but you see it all the time in sports. Poll 100 people outside of Vancouver, for example, and I guess that 90% will tell you that the punishment given to Bertuzzi was warranted - ask 100 people living in Vancouver and I assure you that percentage will be significantly lower. It's called "being a fan" and it has been known to jade people's views at times!! __________________ "Ruth did it on Beer and Hotdogs..." Last edited by Anachronism; 11-16-2004 at 07:31 PM.

11-16-2004, 06:46 PM	#24
sebastian0622 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,465	Only when Bonds collapses and dies at age 47, after hitting his 914th home run earlier in the day, weighing 286 pounds and having a head the size of a basketball, will people finally accept that he's roided out of his mind.

11-16-2004, 08:09 PM	#29
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,672	I dont think Bonds took steroids unless it was in something he didnt know about. I agree with Aadik. Look at players we know took steroids and how long did their careers last? From what ive read steroids makes you much more injury prone. Bonds had that great home run season but the rest of his career his total has been like Aaron's in that he has constitently avg in the 40's since moving to San Fran. Is it a crime to get fat. Getting bigger doesnt mean your on steroids. Most people get bigger as they get older. H edidnt just get bigger overnight. But the biggest reason i dont think he took steroids is because i dont beleive steroids would help him hit the ball. I think it would actually hurt his performance. Because one of Bond's greatest talent is having the quick hands and quick eye. It takes him a lot less than other players to see the ball, know where he wants to swing and execute that swing.