Roger Clemens

mh2365 · 11-10-2004, 05:07 PM

It seems as thought Roger's major obstacle in returning next year is his mother's health. She is wheel-chair bound and sick. He wants her to see him inducted into the HOF.

IMO Selig should for once do the right thing (LOL!!!!!!) and offer to waive the 5 year rule if Clemens should decide to return this year. Of course the stupid union would have to agree but it's the right thing to do and it's good for baseball to have Rocket go one more year.

UngratefulDead · 11-10-2004, 05:10 PM

I see know reason why this would be bad, but I'd have to to think about it.

Skipaway · 11-10-2004, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

IMO Selig should for once do the right thing (LOL!!!!!!) and offer to waive the 5 year rule if Clemens should decide to return this year. Of course the stupid union would have to agree but it's the right thing to do and it's good for baseball to have Rocket go one more year.

Why is union stupid???

And the Hall of Fame is a private company with no actual relationship with the league.

mh2365 · 11-10-2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Why is union stupid???

And the Hall of Fame is a private company with no actual relationship with the league.

Just don't like unions .... I didn't know the HOF was a seperate company. If it is then why does MLB have to reinstate Pete Rose for him to go into the HOF. If it's a seperate company can't it just say we are going to allow him in?

If it won't out of deference to the league, then wouldn't it agree to waive the 5 year exception if the league requested it.

randomlefty10 · 11-10-2004, 05:24 PM

MLB doesn't have to reinstate Rose for him to go into HOF, but the HOF follows MLBs lead.

Long_Long_Name · 11-10-2004, 05:48 PM

First, it's not the "right" thing to waive the 5-year period for Clemens. You may want it to happen, I don't, and neither of us is right.

NHL has done it before for Gretzky and Lemieux. They might've done ot for Richard and Lafleur, but I'm not certain.

DoogieHowserMD · 11-10-2004, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

First, it's not the "right" thing to waive the 5-year period for Clemens. You may want it to happen, I don't, and neither of us is right.

NHL has done it before for Gretzky and Lemieux. They might've done ot for Richard and Lafleur, but I'm not certain.

Listen, I can tell by the Expos logo that you have a bit of a strong feminine side, so what you need to keep in mind is that normal people can appreciate one of the best power pitchers ever when they see one. Clemens is easily one of the top three pitchers of his generation. One of the other two is a finesse pitcher (Maddux) and the other doesn't have the durability (Pedro). That leaves Roger standing alone as the best we've seen since the likes of Johnson. Seven Cy Young Awards people. Not only does he deserve immediate Hall of Fame induction, it will be a crime if pitchers aren't winning Roger Clemens Awards by 2014.

-- Mark

mlyons · 11-10-2004, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoogieHowserMD

That leaves Roger standing alone as the best we've seen since the likes of Johnson.

If you mean Randy Johnson, I agree.

Long_Long_Name · 11-10-2004, 10:13 PM

^Never seen an alias with a league listed in his signature.

What's wrong with me believing that Clemens shouldn't be inducted following the regular HoF rules? I don't see Willie Mays, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver or Hank Aaron getting any exceptions to the rules.

For the sake of argument, I do believe that Clemens is an amazing pitcher. He's not as good as Pedro, I think, but he's among the top 10 of all-time, probably top 5. I don't like Clemens, but he's definitely a Hall of Famer - but if Willie Mays doesn't get a derogation, Clemens shouldn't, in my opinion. Not wanting a derogation for Clemens has no apparent link to my appreciation of seeing Clemens pitch, or calling my Expos support ladylike, for some reason I don't understand.

The award given to the best pitcher of the year is named after Cy Young - clearly far from being the best pitcher ever. I agree with you that Johnson probably had the finest pitching career in baseball history, so if you're willing to name the award after Clemens, why not Walter?

DoogieHowserMD · 11-10-2004, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

If you mean Randy Johnson, I agree.

IP: Clemens 4493, Johnson 3368
Wins: Clemens 348, Johnson 246
K: Clemens 4317, Johnson 4161
Postseason Wins: Clemens 26, Johnson 16
Gray Ink: Clemens 307, Johnson 241

Think again, poindexter. And the name was Walter.

-- Mark

mlyons · 11-10-2004, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoogieHowserMD

IP: Clemens 4493, Johnson 3368
Wins: Clemens 348, Johnson 246
K: Clemens 4317, Johnson 4161
Postseason Wins: Clemens 26, Johnson 16
Gray Ink: Clemens 307, Johnson 241

Think again, poindexter. And the name was Walter.

-- Mark

Easy there, sunshine. I never made any sort of claim that Randy Johnson was a better pitcher than Clemens. I just think you're making a bit of a leap going from "best pitcher of his generation" (which, while debatable, is at least defendable) to "best pitcher since Walter Johnson". Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Hoyt Wilhelm, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Sandy Koufax all fell in between, after all.

I Am The Game · 11-10-2004, 10:27 PM

I disagree. There is a reason the 5-year period is there. Let's say they DO waive the time period. The only logical thing to do is really have him eligible ASAP, because you can't say "two years from now we just hope his mother is still alive", if you're gonna waive the time period becasue of that reason, you should just do it right away. So he gets inducted, you don't think it's beyond Roger "I want to go closer to home so I'll go the farthest place from it in Toronto and I'm going to retire at the end of the year but first let me pitch for the Astros" Clemens to come back and be the only one to pitch a full season WHILE being a Hall of Famer?

I like Clemens, somewhat, and I understand he is one of the greatest pitchers ever but it's a TERRIBLE precedent to set.

Long_Long_Name · 11-10-2004, 10:29 PM

If you justify waiving the 5-year period by a relative's illness, I think it's sad. Why didn't the HoF induct Barry Bonds last year, when Bobby Bonds was very ill?

Karros270 · 11-10-2004, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoogieHowserMD

Listen, I can tell by the Expos logo that you have a bit of a strong feminine side

Hey! I'm wearing my Expos sweatshirt right now. I resent that!

DoogieHowserMD · 11-10-2004, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

If you justify waiving the 5-year period by a relative's illness, I think it's sad. Why didn't the HoF induct Barry Bonds last year, when Bobby Bonds was very ill?

Please refrain from making sick jokes about death at the expense of those who are no longer with us. I never said anything about a relative's illness so why don't you stop putting words in my mouth?

-- Mark

Karros270 · 11-10-2004, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karros270

Hey! I'm wearing my Expos sweatshirt right now. I represent that!

Before someone else does it. I fixed that for ya.

BaseballMan · 11-10-2004, 10:40 PM

Yeah i dont think they should do it either.
Granted Clemens is a cinch to make the Hall but if they do allow him in now then Randy Johnson & Barry Bonds etc etc can all say they have sick grandmothers too.
I mean they didnt allow Barry Bonds in the hall when his father was about to die so i dont think they should do the same for Clemens.
The 5 yr waiting period gives the voters more time to reflect on a players career
Though in the case of Clemens it probably doesnt take 5 years to know Clemens should be in the hall but rules are rules and unless they know that the player is about to die i dont think the rule should be broken.
I could see waiving the 5 yr waiting period if it involved the player himself. Either death or like i said about to die.

rem · 11-10-2004, 10:41 PM

Well, Bonds is um still playing.

As for Clemens, I think the point of the 5 year rule is to discourage active players/managers from being Hall of Famers....in others word to make sure he doesn't unretire.

DoogieHowserMD · 11-10-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karros270

Before someone else does it. I fixed that for ya.

I like your hair.

-- Mark

Long_Long_Name · 11-10-2004, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

Well, Bonds is um still playing.

As for Clemens, I think the point of the 5 year rule is to discourage active players/managers from being Hall of Famers....in others word to make sure he doesn't unretire.

Mario Lemieux is a Hall of Famer. He played a few years as a hall of famer. Guy Lafleur was the first one to do that, in the 1980's.

11-10-2004, 05:07 PM	#1
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Roger Clemens It seems as thought Roger's major obstacle in returning next year is his mother's health. She is wheel-chair bound and sick. He wants her to see him inducted into the HOF. IMO Selig should for once do the right thing (LOL!!!!!!) and offer to waive the 5 year rule if Clemens should decide to return this year. Of course the stupid union would have to agree but it's the right thing to do and it's good for baseball to have Rocket go one more year.

11-10-2004, 05:48 PM	#6
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	First, it's not the "right" thing to waive the 5-year period for Clemens. You may want it to happen, I don't, and neither of us is right. NHL has done it before for Gretzky and Lemieux. They might've done ot for Richard and Lafleur, but I'm not certain. __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

11-10-2004, 10:13 PM	#9
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	^Never seen an alias with a league listed in his signature. What's wrong with me believing that Clemens shouldn't be inducted following the regular HoF rules? I don't see Willie Mays, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver or Hank Aaron getting any exceptions to the rules. For the sake of argument, I do believe that Clemens is an amazing pitcher. He's not as good as Pedro, I think, but he's among the top 10 of all-time, probably top 5. I don't like Clemens, but he's definitely a Hall of Famer - but if Willie Mays doesn't get a derogation, Clemens shouldn't, in my opinion. Not wanting a derogation for Clemens has no apparent link to my appreciation of seeing Clemens pitch, or calling my Expos support ladylike, for some reason I don't understand. The award given to the best pitcher of the year is named after Cy Young - clearly far from being the best pitcher ever. I agree with you that Johnson probably had the finest pitching career in baseball history, so if you're willing to name the award after Clemens, why not Walter? __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

11-10-2004, 10:29 PM	#13
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	If you justify waiving the 5-year period by a relative's illness, I think it's sad. Why didn't the HoF induct Barry Bonds last year, when Bobby Bonds was very ill? __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

11-10-2004, 10:41 PM	#18
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	Well, Bonds is um still playing. As for Clemens, I think the point of the 5 year rule is to discourage active players/managers from being Hall of Famers....in others word to make sure he doesn't unretire. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

11-10-2004, 05:10 PM	#2
UngratefulDead Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 3,415	I see know reason why this would be bad, but I'd have to to think about it.

11-10-2004, 05:24 PM	#5
randomlefty10 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 1,438	MLB doesn't have to reinstate Rose for him to go into HOF, but the HOF follows MLBs lead.

11-10-2004, 10:27 PM	#12
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	I disagree. There is a reason the 5-year period is there. Let's say they DO waive the time period. The only logical thing to do is really have him eligible ASAP, because you can't say "two years from now we just hope his mother is still alive", if you're gonna waive the time period becasue of that reason, you should just do it right away. So he gets inducted, you don't think it's beyond Roger "I want to go closer to home so I'll go the farthest place from it in Toronto and I'm going to retire at the end of the year but first let me pitch for the Astros" Clemens to come back and be the only one to pitch a full season WHILE being a Hall of Famer? I like Clemens, somewhat, and I understand he is one of the greatest pitchers ever but it's a TERRIBLE precedent to set.

11-10-2004, 10:40 PM	#17
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,646	Yeah i dont think they should do it either. Granted Clemens is a cinch to make the Hall but if they do allow him in now then Randy Johnson & Barry Bonds etc etc can all say they have sick grandmothers too. I mean they didnt allow Barry Bonds in the hall when his father was about to die so i dont think they should do the same for Clemens. The 5 yr waiting period gives the voters more time to reflect on a players career Though in the case of Clemens it probably doesnt take 5 years to know Clemens should be in the hall but rules are rules and unless they know that the player is about to die i dont think the rule should be broken. I could see waiving the 5 yr waiting period if it involved the player himself. Either death or like i said about to die.