OOTP 6 / ITP development update - Page 2

Gromit · 09-19-2004, 03:55 PM

Amazing what a simple post like that does.

Communication: What a concept.

Markus Heinsohn · 09-19-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gromit

Amazing what a simple post like that does.

Communication: What a concept.

You are right... although I cannot say I like your avatar

gmo · 09-19-2004, 04:15 PM

Good to hear an update like that. Hopefully explaining the situation, particularly with the H2H, will foster some good will here even though the news may not be all happy, particularly with the H2H.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

"Bugfixing OOTP 6 is almost done, and the AI has been improved."

All the reported bugs? Woo, I hope so. Good news in any case.

I think it is unreasonable to expect every single bug, perceived bug, AI issue, etc to be addressed to the satisfaction of all, so I also hope that like EC said people will not be overly frustrated and decide to erupt if their pet issues are not fixed. Though it does not undo what has made people unhappy over the last several months, from where things are now I give Markus all due credit for doing what I feel was right here. Giving us information like that is good.

JDOldSchool · 09-19-2004, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

Is this still happening? I haven't attempted to pinch-run for my DH in a while, but I guess I assumed that since the "can't pinch-hit for a DH" bug was fixed, the pinch-running was as well. Dang.

I haven't had this problem. I've punch-run for my DH with 6.03 more than once and it worked.

eswan9 · 09-19-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

I haven't had this problem. I've punch-run for my DH with 6.03 more than once and it worked.

Is "punch-run" gramatically correct?

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

I think it is unreasonable to expect every single bug, perceived bug, AI issue, etc to be addressed to the satisfaction of all, so I also hope that like EC said people will not be overly frustrated and decide to erupt if their pet issues are not fixed.

Okay, that's what YOU think. Personally, I find the existence of legacy bugs and serious AI problems to be unreasonable, and if they are not fixed then I and others will indeed be overly frustrated.

Haven't you been paying attention to the threads about these issues?

deadringer · 09-19-2004, 05:48 PM

Thanks Markus!

Gromit · 09-19-2004, 06:55 PM

To recognize the fact that you have responded on the forums, I have removed my "OOTP Information Minister" avatar.

gmo · 09-19-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Okay, that's what YOU think. Personally, I find the existence of legacy bugs and serious AI problems to be unreasonable, and if they are not fixed then I and others will indeed be overly frustrated.

Haven't you been paying attention to the threads about these issues?

Yes, I have been paying attention. That is why I made some of the comments I did. Your pet peeve (or one of them) can be problems continuing from past versions. That is fine. But I do not think it will do any good if now that Markus has made a legitimate effort to communicate and say he is working to fix a lot of things for people to then turn around and decide to begin a firestorm if every single issue cannot be tracked down, fixed, or adjusted to everyone's liking.

It seems most people's problems involve the feelings Markus is not communicating enough and seems to be ignoring OOTP6. My hope is that frustration and anger from that does not get translated into "but you didn't fix my problem" to where it seems he can do no right. IMO, setting the expectation for Markus to address as many issues as he can as well as he can is a good thing and reasonable, but expecting him to completely satisfy everyone on every issue is not good and something I find unreasonable.

Henry · 09-19-2004, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

Yes, I have been paying attention. That is why I made some of the comments I did. Your pet peeve (or one of them) can be problems continuing from past versions. That is fine. But I do not think it will do any good if now that Markus has made a legitimate effort to communicate and say he is working to fix a lot of things for people to then turn around and decide to begin a firestorm if every single issue cannot be tracked down, fixed, or adjusted to everyone's liking.

It seems most people's problems involve the feelings Markus is not communicating enough and seems to be ignoring OOTP6. My hope is that frustration and anger from that does not get translated into "but you didn't fix my problem" to where it seems he can do no right. IMO, setting the expectation for Markus to address as many issues as he can as well as he can is a good thing and reasonable, but expecting him to completely satisfy everyone on every issue is not good and something I find unreasonable.

Agreed, and reasonable. I've said it before, it seems this is the only place perfection is demanded even though everyone knows nothing is perfect.

Dan Theman · 09-19-2004, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

Agreed, and reasonable. I've said it before, it seems this is the only place perfection is demanded even though everyone knows nothing is perfect.

Well, here and my failed marriage, but that's besides the point

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

Yes, I have been paying attention.

Not well enough, it appears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

Your pet peeve (or one of them) can be problems continuing from past versions.

I don't have a "pet peeve." I can see any number of problems with OOTP6. OTOH, I can't see any excuse for a known bug from version 5 being in version 6. None.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

But I do not think it will do any good if now that Markus has made a legitimate effort to communicate and say he is working to fix a lot of things for people to then turn around and decide to begin a firestorm if every single issue cannot be tracked down, fixed, or adjusted to everyone's liking.

It's not about "liking"; it's about having the problems of OOTP fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

It seems most people's problems involve the feelings Markus is not communicating enough and seems to be ignoring OOTP6.

Wrong. Most people's problems involve the facts that OOTP has no H2H, no manual, has both new bugs and legacy bugs, has AI problems, and needs better choices and PbP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

My hope is that frustration and anger from that does not get translated into "but you didn't fix my problem" to where it seems he can do no right.

Write this on your hand: no one owns any of the problems. There are no Eckstein problems, no Remangii problems, no whoever problems, THERE ARE ONLY OOTP PROBLEMS. Leave personalities out of this and stick to the issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmo

IMO, setting the expectation for Markus to address as many issues as he can as well as he can is a good thing and reasonable, but expecting him to completely satisfy everyone on every issue is not good and something I find unreasonable.

Why are you assuming that there are bugs and problems that Markus cannot fix? Give the man some credit. There's nothing on that list that he can't do if he tries. And stop trying to make this somehow personal; none of this is personal. This is about fixing OOTP6, not about personalities.

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

I've said it before, it seems this is the only place perfection is demanded even though everyone knows nothing is perfect.

Henry, you really think that the current OOTP6 - with no H2H and no manual, with both new bugs and legacy bugs, and with both AI and PbP problems is somehow close to perfect? Or that we are somehow "demanding" perfection by asking that the very real problems be fixed? LMAO.

Henry, you need to deal with the fact that there are very real problems that we are aware of with OOTP6 that need to fixed.

And guess what? Even after all of them are fixed, the game will still not be perfect.

But it will be a lot closer to what it ought to be.

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gromit

To recognize the fact that you have responded on the forums, I have removed my "OOTP Information Minister" avatar.

To recognize the fact that Markus has committed to fixing OOTP6, I removed my "OOTP6 needs to be fixed" avatar as well.

Henry · 09-19-2004, 09:23 PM

Mal,

As much as I'd like to ignore your comments in favor of not causing a problem and riling your anger, I have to disagree with you here in concept.

I can't believe your taking a position that demands perfection knowing perfection doesn't exist. I can't believe that you expect Markus to take whatever time it takes to not only fix issues that have been around for a few versions - but to add choices and variables while he's at it to. I can't believe you feel that some of these problems were simply ignored rather than attempted without a successful outcome. Example: Markus all but admitted he was learning as he went as he wrote the networking routines for H2H. Learning something new doesn't happen in the short-order timeframes you seem to be expecting.

This no longer is about giving you what you paid for, because you have now defined what you paid for as a game in it's 6th version that has no flaws, has no shortcomings, and is the perfect baseball simulation in that you'll never have to replace it. That's what this is starting to sound like.

And this isn't personal. I'm not taking this personal, I'm simply shocked your demanding the perfect baseball simulation now, today, for the money you already spent. A perfect simulation that no one else has created by now, but Markus has come the closest to with the 6th version of his game.

You know this game won't be "perfect" in version 6 or version 7 or version 28, because no game is perfect. They ALL have at least minor bugs and they ALL can be improved no matter how good they are currently.

You keep saying "stick to the subject". You've picked up the banner of customers asking for fixes and made it your personal banner for perfection.

Bottom line, your setting up OOTPD to fail, and you know it. Your preaching day in and day out the flaws in the game that MUST be fixed "or else you and others will be really upset". Your setting up Markus to fail because he simply won't have the time to find a correct all the little things that have been uncovered and problems AND things that could be improved (such as PbP).

Please, let's HELP Markus do the right thing here, and be understanding enough that bugs occur, get fixed, and more bugs surface. It's the natural progression of things. If we all take a tack of being a resource for Markus to rely on, and stop setting up the ambushes, we'll accomplish a lot more and so will he.

He's visited today and asked for input on many of the issues discussed here for the last few weeks and longer. Let's give him that input and encouragement to do as much as he can in the time he has left to work on V6. And let's also understand that V7 and future versions will also be imperfect entities that must be maintained and improved with the community's help. But each version will be closer to the "perfect baseball simulation".

When I started here with the release of version 3, this board was a totally different environment. We all pitched in with ideas, and suggestions, and we treated bugs like they were something we could help Markus out with. We looked forward to each and every patch, and found the game getting better and better in the process. Yes, sometimes we were prustrated, but we always saw the horizon, the possibilities of the game. Let's get back to that scenario. Let's help Markus make OOTP the drop dead best baseball game out there - not by threatening to be angry if something doesn't get done, but by continuing to help find and document those issues for him. Let's also keep in mind that there are about 1500 new ideas for V7 on these boards - and most probably won't get in. Other will, but will have to be massaged as time goes on with further patches.

If you must, go ahead and blast me. Your a very intelligent guy, and I have no doubt you will find a way to twist this into being my problem. That's what a good, well read debater does. But I'm used to it - and what your doing is wrong, and it will never change my stance of what's right.

I leave it to you. I won't respond.

matskralc · 09-19-2004, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

But each version will be closer to the "perfect baseball simulation".

And that is mainly because of the fact that we will be demanding a perfect baseball simulation, as opposed to sitting around saying "boy, I sure hope the next OOTP is merely adequate!!!"

dougaiton · 09-19-2004, 09:41 PM

EDIT: Ignore this. Markus' new thread on bug reports has answered my q.

Matteo · 09-19-2004, 10:33 PM

Bad news is better than no news....

Thanks for the update, it is much appreciated by me!

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

I can't believe your taking a position that demands perfection knowing perfection doesn't exist.

Henry, the only person here talking of "demands" and "perfection" is you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

I can't believe that you expect Markus to take whatever time it takes to not only fix issues that have been around for a few versions - but to add choices and variables while he's at it to.

Excuse me? We can't expect Markus to make OOTP6 into what it's supposed to be? Since when?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

I can't believe you feel that some of these problems were simply ignored rather than attempted without a successful outcome.

Henry, I don't "believe" that some of them were ignored and have been ignored; I KNOW they have. How? Because I reported them myself in previous versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

Example: Markus all but admitted he was learning as he went as he wrote the networking routines for H2H. Learning something new doesn't happen in the short-order timeframes you seem to be expecting.

Funny, my wife does that all the time when she's programming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

This no longer is about giving you what you paid for, because you have now defined what you paid for as a game in it's 6th version that has no flaws, has no shortcomings, and is the perfect baseball simulation in that you'll never have to replace it.

Oh, Henry, PLEASE stop trying to put words in our mouths. We want the broken things in OOTP6 fixed, and the missing things in OOTP6 added.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

And this isn't personal.

Then PLEASE stop putting words in our mouths and trying to make it about people. It's about OOTP6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

I'm simply shocked your demanding the perfect baseball simulation now

Let me repeat: we want the broken things in OOTP6 fixed, and the missing things in OOTP6 added. This will not equal perfection by a long shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

You keep saying "stick to the subject".

Yes, and you should try it. The subject is the problems of OOTP6 and getting them fixed, not the politics of getting them fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

You've picked up the banner of customers asking for fixes and made it your personal banner for perfection.

Didn't you just say this wasn't personal? Then try sticking to that. This ISN'T personal, and by trying to blame me personally for a groundswell of opinion that you don't like is making it personal in a new and different way. Look around, Henry, a LOT of people want OOTP6 to be fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

Bottom line, your setting up OOTPD to fail, and you know it.

Crap and nonsense, Henry. Ignoring OOTP6's problems sets OOTPD up to fail. Fixing the problems can only set OOTPD up to SUCCEED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

Please, let's HELP Markus do the right thing here and what your doing is wrong, and it will never change my stance of what's right.

Henry, a lot of us here have been trying and trying to get Markus to do the right thing here. It looks like we succeeded. And, it pains me to say it, but what's wrong here is people defending the buggy, feature-missing status quo and attacking those who want an improved and better game.

Malleus Dei · 09-19-2004, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matskralc

And that is mainly because of the fact that we will be demanding a perfect baseball simulation, as opposed to sitting around saying "boy, I sure hope the next OOTP is merely adequate!!!"

Too true.

09-19-2004, 03:55 PM	#21
Gromit Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Holloman AFB, NM Posts: 164	Amazing what a simple post like that does. Communication: What a concept. __________________ Owner of the 2010 GGNL World Champion Pensacola Pilots, 98-64

09-19-2004, 06:55 PM	#28
Gromit Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Holloman AFB, NM Posts: 164	To recognize the fact that you have responded on the forums, I have removed my "OOTP Information Minister" avatar. __________________ Owner of the 2010 GGNL World Champion Pensacola Pilots, 98-64

09-19-2004, 09:41 PM	#37
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	EDIT: Ignore this. Markus' new thread on bug reports has answered my q. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC) Last edited by dougaiton; 09-19-2004 at 09:43 PM.

09-19-2004, 10:33 PM	#38
Matteo Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 473	Bad news is better than no news.... Thanks for the update, it is much appreciated by me! __________________ ESPN The Show live chat during 2004 ALCS: Julie (Boston): Do you think Jeter does the fist pump everytime he disappoints a woman in bed? Or does he save it for when he's with A-Rod? Bill Simmons: Whoops - I didn't mean to post that. Really, I didn't.

09-19-2004, 05:48 PM	#27
deadringer All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: La Grande, Oregon Posts: 995	Thanks Markus!

09-19-2004, 09:23 PM	#35
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Mal, As much as I'd like to ignore your comments in favor of not causing a problem and riling your anger, I have to disagree with you here in concept. I can't believe your taking a position that demands perfection knowing perfection doesn't exist. I can't believe that you expect Markus to take whatever time it takes to not only fix issues that have been around for a few versions - but to add choices and variables while he's at it to. I can't believe you feel that some of these problems were simply ignored rather than attempted without a successful outcome. Example: Markus all but admitted he was learning as he went as he wrote the networking routines for H2H. Learning something new doesn't happen in the short-order timeframes you seem to be expecting. This no longer is about giving you what you paid for, because you have now defined what you paid for as a game in it's 6th version that has no flaws, has no shortcomings, and is the perfect baseball simulation in that you'll never have to replace it. That's what this is starting to sound like. And this isn't personal. I'm not taking this personal, I'm simply shocked your demanding the perfect baseball simulation now, today, for the money you already spent. A perfect simulation that no one else has created by now, but Markus has come the closest to with the 6th version of his game. You know this game won't be "perfect" in version 6 or version 7 or version 28, because no game is perfect. They ALL have at least minor bugs and they ALL can be improved no matter how good they are currently. You keep saying "stick to the subject". You've picked up the banner of customers asking for fixes and made it your personal banner for perfection. Bottom line, your setting up OOTPD to fail, and you know it. Your preaching day in and day out the flaws in the game that MUST be fixed "or else you and others will be really upset". Your setting up Markus to fail because he simply won't have the time to find a correct all the little things that have been uncovered and problems AND things that could be improved (such as PbP). Please, let's HELP Markus do the right thing here, and be understanding enough that bugs occur, get fixed, and more bugs surface. It's the natural progression of things. If we all take a tack of being a resource for Markus to rely on, and stop setting up the ambushes, we'll accomplish a lot more and so will he. He's visited today and asked for input on many of the issues discussed here for the last few weeks and longer. Let's give him that input and encouragement to do as much as he can in the time he has left to work on V6. And let's also understand that V7 and future versions will also be imperfect entities that must be maintained and improved with the community's help. But each version will be closer to the "perfect baseball simulation". When I started here with the release of version 3, this board was a totally different environment. We all pitched in with ideas, and suggestions, and we treated bugs like they were something we could help Markus out with. We looked forward to each and every patch, and found the game getting better and better in the process. Yes, sometimes we were prustrated, but we always saw the horizon, the possibilities of the game. Let's get back to that scenario. Let's help Markus make OOTP the drop dead best baseball game out there - not by threatening to be angry if something doesn't get done, but by continuing to help find and document those issues for him. Let's also keep in mind that there are about 1500 new ideas for V7 on these boards - and most probably won't get in. Other will, but will have to be massaged as time goes on with further patches. If you must, go ahead and blast me. Your a very intelligent guy, and I have no doubt you will find a way to twist this into being my problem. That's what a good, well read debater does. But I'm used to it - and what your doing is wrong, and it will never change my stance of what's right. I leave it to you. I won't respond.