Truth about the future of OOTP

[Beach23BoyP]

He guys you can gripe and gripe about OOTP6 and Markus' so called lack of attention to H2H and a few other outstanding bugs. But the truth is that Markus has produced one tremendous BB text sim and his merging with SI Games was a utterly brilliant move!

I know most of you don't know that much about Soccer (Football) text sims but I'm here to tell you that SI Games' "Football Manager 2005" is going to be the most incrediable and complex piece of software ever released for a sports simulation. Nothing is close. The depth and breath of FM2005 is simply staggering. Like other SI releases it will become a religion for its users! I love Soccer myself but like CM 03/04 I just will not have the hundreds and hundreds of hours demanded to play the thing.

What does this mean to OOTP users? Great stuff -- that is what it means! If Markus can deliever 1/2 the stuff that is in FM2005 then OOTP7 will be vastly better than anyone of us can imagine! I can't wait for an animated ball field (I hope it is just like FM2005 animated pitch!), dealing with the press, dealing with player agents, dealing with player's head's, etc, and etc.

I believe the future is great for OOTP and I'm sticking with Markus and I wish him the best of luck. Having played SI games sims before I know what a great group of guys he's tied up with. Give Markus a break and let him (with SI's help) deliever the BB text sim we've always wanted!

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Beach23BoyP

Give Markus a break and let him (with SI's help) deliever the BB text sim we've always wanted!

We've given him a rather long break. The results for OOTP6 haven't been encouraging.

[atarizx3]

well, I'm sure the next incarnation of ootp will be just super, in sept of '05.

but the problems that people are "griping" about are the ones in the current version, the one that people dropped $30-something on and has had no updates.

[Henry]

No updates?

How about April, May and June, and another promised by the playoffs?

Given him enough time?

Let's see... 5 months since the release of V6, 3 updates, and significant progress on V7 per a recent email. Anyone here want to stick their neck out and say they could have done better? I certainly won't.

Being in IT and a past programmer myself, I find it amazing at how the creation of an application can be reduced down to something like sweeping the sidewalk by those that don't have a clue how to do it themselves. If you take that as harsh, compare it to how harsh you've been on Markus recently.

Yes, Markus is probably working on V6 part time now. What would you expect if YOU changed jobs and still had an old project from the previous one? Given the fact that he's already patched the game 3 times and still promises a major update before it's over strikes me as a commitment to V6, not abadonment.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Henry

...strikes me as a commitment to V6, not abadonment.

Henry, let me quote Markus to you to answer your comment about committment:

"OOTP 6 has been in the backseat for awhile now, but over this weekend I will really pick it up again and a) fix bugs and enhance player development and roster AI and b) try to get this head-to-head thing done, which really has given me lots of headache.

I'm sorry fot the lack of updates and will be more regular now."

Please note "has been in the backseat for awhile now."

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Henry, let me quote Markus to you to answer your comment about committment:

"OOTP 6 has been in the backseat for awhile now, but over this weekend I will really pick it up again and a) fix bugs and enhance player development and roster AI and b) try to get this head-to-head thing done, which really has given me lots of headache.

I'm sorry fot the lack of updates and will be more regular now."

Please note "has been in the backseat for awhile now."

Meaning exactly what, Mal?

That he should have been working on it all along rather than put his 40 hours a week into SI? That he should have been working 4 hours a night on it?

How do we know he hasn't been working 60 hours a week on V7?

Commitment means he still has plans for V6. It doesn't mean he works on it according to OUR schedule.

[matskralc]

Originally Posted by Henry

Being in IT and a past programmer myself, I find it amazing at how the creation of an application can be reduced down to something like sweeping the sidewalk by those that don't have a clue how to do it themselves. If you take that as harsh, compare it to how harsh you've been on Markus recently.

Then maybe Markus should stop promising what he can't deliver.

Originally Posted by Henry

Yes, Markus is probably working on V6 part time now. What would you expect if YOU changed jobs and still had an old project from the previous one?

Markus has changed jobs? Last I checked, he's been, and still is, a baseball sim programmer.

Originally Posted by Henry

Given the fact that he's already patched the game 3 times and still promises a major update before it's over strikes me as a commitment to V6, not abadonment.p

Given the fact that those patches came in lieu of promised updates, I won't be holding my breath.

[matskralc]

Originally Posted by Henry

Meaning exactly what, Mal?

That he should have been working on it all along rather than put his 40 hours a week into SI? That he should have been working 4 hours a night on it?

How do we know he hasn't been working 60 hours a week on V7?

Commitment means he still has plans for V6. It doesn't mean he works on it according to OUR schedule.

Maybe he should be working on it according to his own schedule, then. Like the one that promised a major update to the game about a week or two after release. Maybe he should, *gasp!*, be fulfilling his commitments to V6 before creating new ones to V7.

[darkcloud4579]

Also, when you compare three patches and relatively stable gameplay - let's face it, we all knew the problems inheirent with OOTP before we got the games....for the most part - is far better than some of the big-box companies do when they're making games. They won't release any patches, if they have a message board, you can be sure no one is listening.

Here, it gets personal because we know someone is out there, they care and eventually they'll respond with something. People have to realize that we're lucky in a sense and get spoiled because independent developers are out there listening to what we want and instead of just doing what they want in games all the time, they really want to hear feedback.

Not being an apologist, I've said v.5 made me happier than v.6, but I still like it and it gets the job done generally.

So the calls for patience in my mind aren't unwarranted. Not that I expect anyone to stop complaining, just offering an alternative view.

[matskralc]

I'm quite tired of the "you guys are lucky and should be thankful!" line. That doesn't really rub a paying customer the right way.

[rem]

How about April, May and June, and another promised by the playoffs?


It is already 50% implemented, but I guess getting it done 100% and testing it properly will take 1 week.

So, the question is, I could leave this out of the initial release, and concentrate on it fully for the first big update, which usually is 2-3 weeks after release time.

The playoffs are significantly more then 2-3 months past the promised release time.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

^^^^ We have a winner!

Not to mention a complete lack of communication in the interim time. Maybe promised features have proven to be more difficult than thought. Maybe Markus has been putting in 100 hours a week on OOTP7, and couldn't get them implemented. Maybe he was abducted by aliens, and spent the last two months getting daily anal probes.

The point is, we don't know because there has been no communication other than Steve Kuffrey's game attempts to cover for these facts. I do appreciate the effort he's putting in, but it's starting to get rather "Iraqi Information Minister-esque."

[Bohunk]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

^^^^ We have a winner!

Not to mention a complete lack of communication in the interim time. Maybe promised features have proven to be more difficult than thought. Maybe Markus has been putting in 100 hours a week on OOTP7, and couldn't get them implemented. Maybe he was abducted by aliens, and spent the last two months getting daily anal probes.

The point is, we don't know because there has been no communication other than Steve Kuffrey's game attempts to cover for these facts. I do appreciate the effort he's putting in, but it's starting to get rather "Iraqi Information Minister-esque."

Que new alias...

[rem]

Let's see... 5 months since the release of V6, 3 updates, and significant progress on V7 per a recent email.

Patches are not updates my friend,

Compared too...

5.01 March
5.10 4/14
5.11 June
5.12 July
5.13 Oct
5.14 Nov

(Yes, I realize the above time period is longer than 5 months.)

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by matskralc

I'm quite tired of the "you guys are lucky and should be thankful!" line. That doesn't really rub a paying customer the right way.

You'll eat your gruel and LIKE it, you ungrateful wretch!!!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I do appreciate the effort he's putting in, but it's starting to get rather "Iraqi Information Minister-esque."

"I repeat: OOTP6 is being fixed as we speak! And there are no Americans in Baghdad!"

[Bohunk]

Originally Posted by Beach23BoyP

He guys you can gripe and gripe about OOTP6 and Markus' so called lack of attention to H2H and a few other outstanding bugs. But the truth is that Markus has produced one tremendous BB text sim and his merging with SI Games was a utterly brilliant move!

I know most of you don't know that much about Soccer (Football) text sims but I'm here to tell you that SI Games' "Football Manager 2005" is going to be the most incrediable and complex piece of software ever released for a sports simulation. Nothing is close. The depth and breath of FM2005 is simply staggering. Like other SI releases it will become a religion for its users! I love Soccer myself but like CM 03/04 I just will not have the hundreds and hundreds of hours demanded to play the thing.

What does this mean to OOTP users? Great stuff -- that is what it means! If Markus can deliever 1/2 the stuff that is in FM2005 then OOTP7 will be vastly better than anyone of us can imagine! I can't wait for an animated ball field (I hope it is just like FM2005 animated pitch!), dealing with the press, dealing with player agents, dealing with player's head's, etc, and etc.

I believe the future is great for OOTP and I'm sticking with Markus and I wish him the best of luck. Having played SI games sims before I know what a great group of guys he's tied up with. Give Markus a break and let him (with SI's help) deliever the BB text sim we've always wanted!

Even fan boys would have to admit that the heat has been rising on this topic for I think more than a week now, and all we got was the two to three line email Steve posted for us. I think most of the "gripers" know that this is the best text based baseball sim out there, but they believe or hope that it can get better.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Henry

Being in IT and a past programmer myself, I find it amazing at how the creation of an application can be reduced down to something like sweeping the sidewalk by those that don't have a clue how to do it themselves. If you take that as harsh, compare it to how harsh you've been on Markus recently.

Then maybe Markus should stop promising what he can't deliver.

We've been over this before. If Markus chose to not announce anything until it was done and working, the announcement would come out maybe a week before release. I doubt that would be good business sense either. I truly expect that Markus will be much more conservative than in the past from here on in. In fact, I suspect SI will demand it.

Originally Posted by Henry

Yes, Markus is probably working on V6 part time now. What would you expect if YOU changed jobs and still had an old project from the previous one?

Markus has changed jobs? Last I checked, he's been, and still is, a baseball sim programmer.

Come on Mat. You know exactly what I meant, and Markus DID change jobs (self employment to working for SI).

Originally Posted by Henry

Given the fact that he's already patched the game 3 times and still promises a major update before it's over strikes me as a commitment to V6, not abadonment.p

Given the fact that those patches came in lieu of promised updates, I won't be holding my breath.

I think the biggest difference between myself and those that feel the way I do, when compared to those that are insisting on retribution, is that we are willing to extend some form of understanding AND attempt to understand things that are beyond one's control. Although I hope V6 is updated and many of the issues are fixed, I am satisfied that I got my $35 worth, and even if V6 isn't patched, I will purchase V7 when released in hopes that the issues are taken care of there. I'm a "realist" in the sense that I know things will never be 100% and strive to find enjoyment in what I do get. It's curious because I am also seen as a perfectionist at work - but the difference is once I know we have done as good as possible, given the circumstances, I pat my folks on the back with "job well done" and turn my attention to the next project.

Those of you that have been here a long time know that V7 won't be the perfect baseball simulation either. But many of us will buy it, enjoy it, and wait for V8 which will be even better.


One other thought before I leave this thread to the rest of you...

I firmly believe that Markus' intentions throughout all 6 versions has been honorable. All he tried to do was share with us his ideas and hopes for OOTP. In doing so, he felt comfortable enough with this community (or at least what it used to be) to give details of what he wanted to do - even before he was sure it could be done, hoping for comments and support.

To the letter, he has been blasted and insulted for not making deadlines, and not including each and every idea he's ever mentioned. Every word he has uttered has been taken apart, and thrown back at him in not so kind words.

And then you wonder why he doesn't visit as often as he once did....

[disposableheros]

can someone please start another thread about this subject? i havent heard the same things enough yet.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by remangiii

How about April, May and June, and another promised by the playoffs?


It is already 50% implemented, but I guess getting it done 100% and testing it properly will take 1 week.

So, the question is, I could leave this out of the initial release, and concentrate on it fully for the first big update, which usually is 2-3 weeks after release time.

The playoffs are significantly more then 2-3 months past the promised release time.

I had to respond to this... so, I assume folks are not allowed to make mistakes or misjudgements. Markus is a bad guy because his hopes and dreams are greater than what he can accomplish? He's failed, thus there should be retribution.

I hope you don't raise your kids this way.