Does anyone else agree that the Cubs are just .. I don't know.. UGH!

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Obviously, throwing inside is fine.

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

The game of baseball should involve inside pitching to get the batters off the plate. IF a few get hit, then so be it. Throwing at someone's head is wrong, throwing inside is not. That is just symantics I guess but I am getting tired of people like Marquis Grissom who overreact to an inside pitch. If you get hit, take your damn base and stop acting like someone wronged you, getting hit is part of the game. That message goes to anybody that cries about being hit intentionally. If a Pitcher never comes out and says he hit you intentionally how do you know he did? It is reasonable to believe that after a picther gives up a homerun ball he is frustrated and being frustrated he might lose focus and throw a wild pitch.

Well, I think your spot-on that a distinction needs to be made.

As to knowing what is a beanball and what is not, there is, in a few cases, confusion. But if you watch that Cards-Cubs games, then its pretty bloody obvious. If a fastball is thrown behind or at someone's head then I'd say you could be pretty sure that he's aiming there. Moreover, it's obvious enough for MLB to lay down suspensions. All I'm saying is that the suspensions at the minute consider beanballs to be 'part of the game', like getting thrown out the game for arguing a call, if a regrettable one.

What gets me is this macho culture of 'he showed me up' ****e that pervades the whole thing. Sure, people shouldn't overreact when they get hit by a curveball (that's more of the same testorone bull), but I would say that pitchers overreact worse when they throw at a guy for 'lingering' on the basepaths - what the hell did he do, stop and point??!

It's bad enough when managers authorise this behaivour, but when an individual (like Zambrano did) takes the matter into his own hands it's the ultimate selfish act. 'My ego got hurt, so I'll risk my team's success' - it's pathetic.

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

It's bad enough when managers authorise this behaivour, but when an individual (like Zambrano did) takes the matter into his own hands it's the ultimate selfish act. 'My ego got hurt, so I'll risk my team's success' - it's pathetic.

Tell that to Don Drysdale...

Zambrano didn't aim for the guy's head. I'll give him that, at least. I really think it is detrimental in the long run to retaliate against hitters who happen to have hit a homer off them the at-bat before. It put anotherpotential run on base and it serves no real purpose.

I hope Dusty can control this young arm before he gets himself into more trouble.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

Tell that to Don Drysdale...

Zambrano didn't aim for the guy's head. I'll give him that, at least. I really think it is detrimental in the long run to retaliate against hitters who happen to have hit a homer off them the at-bat before. It put anotherpotential run on base and it serves no real purpose.

I hope Dusty can control this young arm before he gets himself into more trouble.

That'a part of the ridiculousness - he's hurting himself and the Cubs more than he did Edmonds. Silly chap!

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

That'a part of the ridiculousness - he's hurting himself and the Cubs more than he did Edmonds. Silly chap!

His immaturity level is shining right now. They need to curb it. Or just give him a pacifier.

[BleedingCubbyBlue]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

His immaturity level is shining right now. They need to curb it. Or just give him a pacifier.

I'm not defending him, but Z just turned 23. He' got no where to go but up in the matruty area now. We'll see how hee is today.

[ihatenames]

I just want to talk about my point... I don't think headhunting is okay. Pitchers today pretty much cannot pitch inside due to the body armor and current umpiring trend. If a guy is sitting on the plate, i don't see the harm in a few bruised thighs and lower backs. In todays game a batter has a great advantage. He can stand on top of the plate all he wants, where all the body armor he wants. And then when they get hit they throw a hissy fit. Then odds are the benches will be warned and the inside corner is taken away. Because over egotistical umpires. This is an exaggeration obviously, however i think i made my point.

In regards to the topic on hand. I think Edmonds handled the situation like a pro and should be proud of himself. On the other hand, Zambrano should be ashamed at himself for embarassing his team. Although, its good to see he did go for the thigh, which is very unlikely to actually hurt the guy.

I don't mind a few beanballs as long as they're done like Zambrano did, and in proper situations. Zambrano's was not. Edmonds did nothing wrong. If i hit the ball that far i would have done the same thing. He crushed that pitch.

[torzh]

I am a cubs fan but I have to agree Z and Hawkins lost it and deserve their suspensions. But that isn't the problems as others have pointed out their is a lack of leadership on the club. Dusty is a great positive reinforcer, players love playing for him, and probably play a little harder for him. He however hasn't been very good at correcting mistakes this year, and is a below average strategist. A good manager overall, but not great. It's sad, we went from a can do club last year to a club who thought they were great and were entitled this year.

That being said it's early and we can still turn it around. Everyone is back from the DL so Dusty needs to get to work and figure out away to bring consitency to the offense, aka we need our guys to play for OBP not HRs at least some of the time. The pitching should take care of itself :crosses fingers:

[STLFAN2003]

Cardinals fans seem to have different attitudes, we dont jump on a player when they are doing horribly. Ask some current ball players
As a Cardinals fan, I am happy that Tomko and Hermanson are succeeding, I would rather have them dominate the Cardinals in a game than just flat out suck

I rememeber when Placido Polanco came back in town after being traded, he was bitter about the deal but when he came, everybody gave him a standing ovation. Whenever a team does well, someone always has to put them down(Yankees for example)



what makes you think the Cardinals are sissies, if you get that impression by them not retaliating you are wrong. The Cubs were losing and were trying to stir things up, the Cardinals on the other hand, were trying to play baseball

[ihatenames]

The cubs always give randle Simon a standing ovation. Now before any more ignorance is thrown around. Remember generalizations and stereotypes don't mean anything. You can't judge a team or fans by a few people's actions.

[neohemp]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

Tell that to Don Drysdale...

Zambrano didn't aim for the guy's head. I'll give him that, at least. I really think it is detrimental in the long run to retaliate against hitters who happen to have hit a homer off them the at-bat before. It put anotherpotential run on base and it serves no real purpose.

I hope Dusty can control this young arm before he gets himself into more trouble.

Yeah, except if you had watched the game, it went -Edmonds gets plunked- -Edmonds comes back up and HE retaliates by hitting the homerun- -Edmonds gets plunked again-

What, exactly was he retaliating against the first time he hit him?

I agree, pitching inside/even hitting batters in some circumstances, although it doesn't really solve anything, is alright periodically.. but when you get insane about it like Zambrano did, it's just unnescessary, and to me it really ruins the game.

[neohemp]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

The cubs always give randle Simon a standing ovation. Now before any more ignorance is thrown around. Remember generalizations and stereotypes don't mean anything. You can't judge a team or fans by a few people's actions.

It's... it's Randall Simon...
hehe

[dsvitak]

Somebody made a post in this thread about how the Cardinals need to WATCH OUT FOR THE CUBS STARTERS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!! W00T!!!!11!

I call bullsh1t on that statement.

Cubs team era: 3.74

Cards team era 3.75

The Cardinals also have a better team WHIP.

Bottom line, the Cubs have nearly identical pitching as the Cards, and their offense sucks, in comparison.

I say, bring on the Cubs! The Cards will kick their ass in the postseason, too.

[mauboy]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Somebody made a post in this thread about how the Cardinals need to WATCH OUT FOR THE CUBS STARTERS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!! W00T!!!!11!

I call bullsh1t on that statement.

Cubs team era: 3.74

Cards team era 3.75

The Cardinals also have a better team WHIP.

Bottom line, the Cubs have nearly identical pitching as the Cards, and their offense sucks, in comparison.

I say, bring on the Cubs! The Cards will kick their ass in the postseason, too.

ROFL

The Cubs starting pitching is better. You showed TEAM ERA. Which is not the way to go when you're looking at the starting pitchers, in which was the basis for your argument. Right? I mean, you quoted someone who said "Watch out for the Cubs Starting Pitchers!" Then you came back with saying they're identical. Not true.

Braves and Cubs are tied for first in the Majors with a 3.74 ERA from Starting Pitchers. I remind you, starting pitchers.

Go down the list... Down to number 6, with a 4.07 ERA. Cubs starters are better.

You've proved nothing. The Cubs starters are hands down the best in the Majors when they're healthy. We need Prior to do that now! Hopefully by the playoffs all will be well.

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by mauboy

The Cubs starters are hands down the best in the Majors when they're healthy. We need Prior to do that now! Hopefully by the playoffs all will be well.

For the Cubs' sake, here's hoping all of their starters throw complete games. 'Cause if it gets down to the bullpen, that's where the Cubs are really weak.

[Prior81]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Somebody made a post in this thread about how the Cardinals need to WATCH OUT FOR THE CUBS STARTERS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!! W00T!!!!11!

I call bullsh1t on that statement.

Cubs team era: 3.74

Cards team era 3.75

The Cardinals also have a better team WHIP.

Bottom line, the Cubs have nearly identical pitching as the Cards, and their offense sucks, in comparison.

I say, bring on the Cubs! The Cards will kick their ass in the postseason, too.

total.moron.

[mauboy]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

For the Cubs' sake, here's hoping all of their starters throw complete games. 'Cause if it gets down to the bullpen, that's where the Cubs are really weak.

The Cubs have good talent in the pen as well. When they're on, they're ON. When they're off, they play like a bunch of little leaguers.

Ah, well. Can't have it all.

[dsvitak]

Heh heh...nice slam, Prior...not surprised, given the stupid name you gave yourself.

The Cubs are losers, you're a loser, and the Cubs have NO chance this year.

Deal with it....any team can have a bad century!

[mauboy]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Heh heh...nice slam, Prior...not surprised, given the stupid name you gave yourself.

The Cubs are losers, you're a loser, and the Cubs have NO chance this year.

Deal with it....any team can have a bad century!

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Hey, I'm sorry. I like the Cubs. They are my second favorite team!

Nothing would be better, to me, than to have the Cubs/Cardinals play in the League Championship Series...and to have ONE of them go on to win the World Series.

What kind of fan are you, again?

[dsvitak]

A Cardinals fan, who likes the Cubs, but has problems with many of the Cubs fans...and uses the opportunity to push a sharp pointy thing their way.

Again, there ain't nothing wrong with the Cubs, just SOME OF their ... overly aggressive and obnoxious fans.

Didja see where the moron manager of the Cubs went to Sosa, and asked him to move down in the order, to 5th or 6th? Sosa, naturally refused, saying it would reduce his RBI chances.

Scott Rolen, on the other hand, volunteered to drop down from fourth, should LaRussa wish to hit Larry Walker there.

Talk about the basic difference in the teams!

Also, if I was the Cardinals, after a home run off of that head case Zambrano, I would tell the players to walk around the bases. That would be it from the head case, useless the rest of the series.

Dusty Baker has lost control of his team.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by mauboy

ROFL

The Cubs starting pitching is better. You showed TEAM ERA. Which is not the way to go when you're looking at the starting pitchers, in which was the basis for your argument. Right? I mean, you quoted someone who said "Watch out for the Cubs Starting Pitchers!" Then you came back with saying they're identical. Not true.

Braves and Cubs are tied for first in the Majors with a 3.74 ERA from Starting Pitchers. I remind you, starting pitchers.

Go down the list... Down to number 6, with a 4.07 ERA. Cubs starters are better.

You've proved nothing. The Cubs starters are hands down the best in the Majors when they're healthy. We need Prior to do that now! Hopefully by the playoffs all will be well.

Even better from a playoff point of view would be to look at the top 3 starters and top 3 or 4 relievers on each staff. You don't see too many innings out of the 10th or 11th pitcher come October.

Using team ERA is one of the silliest things I've seen in a while.