Most Important Pitching Skill

[ublguy]

Stuff!

But, when the pitcher has low control and high stuff & movement I usually move him to be a closer (Kerry Wood) which they usually excel in.

[Ragnar]

I dunno. It seems like we're playing a different game here. If you had to pick 2 ratings to be high and 1 low what would they be? I would pick Movement and control. Not alot of homers and not alot of walks. Can you afford to have either of those 2 low? That said......why is "Stuff" winning the poll? I guess it's just my opinion.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by jasonb13

I've always thought of stuff to be the things that make the batter miss the ball - the bite of a good breaking pitch, the explosion of a hard fastball, the severity of the drop of a splitter, the not totally tangible characteristics of a pitcher who makes a batter feel just plain unconfortable in the box.

While good control will limit walks and hit batters, and good movement will decrease the chances of a batter hitting the ball solidly, sgood stuff will make the batter just plain miss, and it's hard to score runs if you can't hit the ball at all.

Here's my take

STUFF is being able to throw any type of ball at different speeds. Hitting is timing and pitching is upsetting timing. The reason Maddux and Pedro as so good is the fact they can throw any of their pitches with a 10 mph variable on it. Go to the batting cage...go to the 70 MPH cage hit 10 balls then go to the 80 mph cage I bet you miss the first couple because you are timed to the 70 mph.

That's what I think STUFF is...as for what you said, I think that is implied in MOVEMENT...which also effects K's

Now STUFF works great in modern leagues but historical leagues...it's not so good, basically because the game cannot program, that bats were thicker, batters choked up and such. Nowadays bats are within a cvery specific range but back then the bats were huge thick and heavy so it was very hard to miss the ball. It seems the only way I can get pitchers ABOVE 100 on control and Movemnet in historic leagues is t edit them via the traditional engine (thanks markus for keeping it in) and then changing engines.

But I do believe in DIPS and I love that a pitcher is only as good as his defense regardless if he is Cy Young or Kevin Gross. Gross should do better than Cy with A rated defense around him and Cy having E rated defense. On level ground a C level defense is the only time Cy should have an advantage based mearly on his ratings, w/o a better D

Stuff is more important with DIPS than it was before, correct?

No defense is the most important, but on a level playing field with the same D, Stuff will have one pitcher perform better than another, because it is the greates effect on strikeouts, hence defense never even comes into play

[sebastian0622]

BTW, does velocity even matter? As far as I can tell, it is just for PbP. Kind of a shame if you ask me.

Stuff in OOTP is the ability to get the K. In real life means a lot of things. Mainly, velocity. Secondly, it is a good measure of a guy's "out" pitch(es). When I think of stuff, I think of John Smoltz because he has great velocity but also can get you out with a nasty slider or splitter. Stuff = composite of quality of individual pitches.

Control is the ability to avoid walking someone in OOTP. It really should mean a little more in OOTP, as in RL great control pitchers can be effective with average stuff because of their ability to continually throw "pitchers pitches". You aren't going to give up many hits if you are on the corners of the plate all day.

Movement, in OOTP is the ability to not give up the longball. In RL, I view it as the movement on mainly the fastball. Most of the top pitchers, especially those without great velocity, have movement on their fastballs. Think Pedro or Maddux. Think Lowe's sinking fastball. I don't really think of movement as how good someone's breaking balls move, but that would obviously seem to be part of it. I'd be more likely to say someone had nasty 'stuff' if they threw a great slider, but great 'movement' if their fastball tailed 3 inches.

[Ragnar]

I thought this thread was concerning OOTP6. We can talk for days on real baseball but as far as OOTP is concerned it is my opinion "Stuff" is the least of the 3 yet it is winning in the poll. I'll take a pitcher 30-100-100 over any pitcher with the "30" somewhere else. Bet i'll win 70% of the time.

[sebastian0622]

Someone should do a study on this. Make a league of all hitters who are 50 across the board and make each #1 starter a 90-45-45 (stuff, control, movement), each #2 a 45-90-45, each #3 a 45-45-90, each #4 a 60/60/60, and you could experiment with the #5's. 100/35/45, 90/10/80, 10/100/70, etc.

And before somebody says "that somebody should be you!" I will say that I'm considering it but am kinda lazy.

[tomolak]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I thought this thread was concerning OOTP6. We can talk for days on real baseball but as far as OOTP is concerned it is my opinion "Stuff" is the least of the 3 yet it is winning in the poll. I'll take a pitcher 30-100-100 over any pitcher with the "30" somewhere else. Bet i'll win 70% of the time.

I think most people voting for "stuff" are assuming that the question is: "If only one of the 3 skills can be strong; which one you're going to choose?" rather than "If only one of the 3 skills is weak, which one you're more willing to give up?" So I vote for "stuff" because in my league, 100-30-30 pitchers are Cy-Young-Award caliber pitchers while 30-100-30 and 30-30-100 ones are just mediocre or aweful. I agree with you that 30-100-100 pitchers are excellent, too. Actually, in my league 100-30-30, 30-100-100, and 100-30-100 pitchers are equally strong. But if the choice is among 100-30-30, 30-100-30, and 30-30-100, then I'll definitely go with the 100-30-30 one.

[The Interloper]

Originally Posted by Kaline

It all depends on your team.

If you are a great defensive team, you dont need K's as much so control and movement.

Likewise, if you play if huge pitchers park, movement is nullfied.

If you have a horrid defence, you need stuff to get Ks (thus outs)

If you have a GB pitcher, stuff is more important (as you will get more GBs nullifying the walks a bit).

Also depends on era, movment is woth little in a deadball era, but modern era its very important.

That's a good point. I still think stuff is generally most important (since stuff lowers balls in play, which I think has the biggest effect), but it could be modified by this to the degree that for extremely good defensive teams, movement or control may be most important. Actually, I'll say movement. Control, while certainly important, comes up short of the other two to me.

[643gdp]

It's all poise. Poise is a hidden rating that you can't see, but older pitchers have it and rookies don't (usually) which is why the older guys are always better, unless they've gotten TOO OLD and then the younger rookies have more poise really. But it's all poise, it just looks like the other ratings, really. I mean it.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by tomolak

But if the choice is among 100-30-30, 30-100-30, and 30-30-100, then I'll definitely go with the 100-30-30 one.

This is why I think we play different games sometimes. I wouldn't give a pitcher with 100-30-30 a $5 contract. I'v had a few like that since in my solo league they are more common. They are always my 5th starter. I sweat out every game they play. If they make it past the 5th inning giving up less than 5 runs i'm happy. Then again, the other two choices aren't too good either. So all I did was add another "100" to another rating to eliminate a stat. So if "stuff" is left out IMO the most important rating must be one of the other 2. I guess i'm making little sense.

[bulldog55]

Originally Posted by Kaline

It all depends on your team.

If you are a great defensive team, you dont need K's as much so control and movement.

Likewise, if you play if huge pitchers park, movement is nullfied.

If you have a horrid defence, you need stuff to get Ks (thus outs)

If you have a GB pitcher, stuff is more important (as you will get more GBs nullifying the walks a bit).

Also depends on era, movment is woth little in a deadball era, but modern era its very important.

This is the correct answer. I love extreme pitchers parks and thus pay a lot less attention to movement than I do to stuff and control.