Stealing and Leading Off in Youth Baseball

Joe Shlabotnick · 06-15-2004, 04:41 PM

My son is in a local baseball league with other 11 and 12-year-olds. They call it the "majors." The "minors" league is for 9 and 10-year-olds. This year, both leagues allow lead-offs and stealing without restriction. Also, players can score on a wild pitch or passed ball, and even advance to first on a dropped third strike.

When my son was back in Minors, as well as last year, stealing was not allowed. Some of the Board members pushed through these rule changes for this year. The argument is the following ... we play teams from around the area, and THOSE teams steal and such, so we need to, also. Other arguments in favor include ... 1) this is a "feeder league" for the high school team, 2) it's the way the game is played, and 3) they'll need to do it soon so they may as well learn now.

On the other hand, I am dismayed to watch these games in action (maybe biased a bit because my son pitches a lot) because EVERY steal attempt is successful, and 95% of the attempts to get from third to home on errors are succesful. The kids don't have the skills at this age, in my opinion, to fire a strike from home plate to second or third base, then have a fielder make a catch, have the guts to stay in there and make the tag, and actually make the tag. The proof of my point is that I have NEVER seen a failed steal attempt this year. And what is being learned by this? I don't really know. It's like we played when we were five ... get a hit, and just keep running.

So what's your opinion? It's become quite a controversy here, with a small but vocal group of parents who are very unhappy with the rule.

Teddyballgame · 06-15-2004, 06:32 PM

It's stupid, short basepaths and lack of catcher arm strength are going to let everyone steal. What an absurd idea.

When I played in the "majors", I was a catcher. We had the steal only when the ball crosses the plate rule, even still the steal rate was wicked high. I like to pride myself on the fact I was the "most feared" catcher in the league because I had the best arm. It made up for my sissy abilities that limited me to only hitting singles, walking or striking out.

Rob in Phoenix · 06-15-2004, 06:37 PM

60' basepaths suck. Get your kid up into the next level with 90' bases if you want him to develop skills that will allow him to one day punch his ticket to the major leagues. He won’t learn jack crap with those 60' basepaths and pitchers who couldn't find the strike zone with a radar.

nate7891 · 06-15-2004, 06:58 PM

i also had the steal rule that you can go when the ball crosses the plate..that made it plenty hard to get there before the ball...but in high school you will need to learn how to steal and learn how to time pitches so its a good start.

Rasmuth · 06-15-2004, 06:59 PM

if somebody steals on ya...have the pitcher bean him next time up.

Jordan · 06-15-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob in Phoenix
60' basepaths suck. Get your kid up into the next level with 90' bases if you want him to develop skills that will allow him to one day punch his ticket to the major leagues. He won’t learn jack crap with those 60' basepaths and pitchers who couldn't find the strike zone with a radar.

Even Dylan could steal on 60' basepaths

jarmenia · 06-15-2004, 09:00 PM

unfortunately as a baseball coach myself, I would prefer if kids could not steal in little league at all. I coach 13 - 14 year olds and for the 13 year olds, this is the first season they play on 90 foot bases and 60' 6" distance to the mound.

With the lack of quality coaches in little league, I spend more than half the year correcting the incorrect fundementals that are taught because they are the key to winning games at the lower levels.

The kids don't learn how to steal a base correctly because they don't need to. Even the slowest kid in the league steals. Then they come up to the next level and they get picked off and thrown out like crazy and I get parents and kids asking why my johnny doesn't steal more.

BTW, I do not have any kids so I consider myself fairly objective when it comes to evaluating players.

John.

Hank Greenberg · 06-15-2004, 09:07 PM

I played catcher for a while when I was like 13.

We had that, you can go when the ball cross's the plate rule. Kids kept stealing on me.....

I pitched as well, I pitched the last few innings of one game. Some little f'er was running on me all day (I threw out like 3 kids all year), so I through a pickoff attempt at his head 3 times.

He got the message.

andjbock · 06-15-2004, 09:28 PM

I'm of on both sides here. Assuming that there are a minor league, majors and babe ruth, I think it that stealing should not be allowed in minors and of course allowed in babe ruth. Majors, however was a "fence" league when I played. Since I was born in the end of August and the cut off was a week brefore me. I was the oldest player in the league my second year of majors. I wanted to steal, because I knew it was easy. Kids need to be able to steal when they are in Majors I guess because it is good prep work for high school.

Babe Ruth and HS baseball were in the same year for me, so I was almost behind. Almost because in Majors you could run on passed balls, so I did.

Catchers arms aren't much until age 14 and even then. So it is tough and I can't really decide.

This Is Not Here · 06-15-2004, 11:44 PM

I coach in the Majors and we have the rule where you can only steal when the ball crosses the plate. You can advance on wild pitches/pass balls. If theres a wild pitch with a runner on 3rd, the runner must slide at the plate. Whenever you get guys on the corners, you know the other team is going to steal 2nd and you cant do **** bout it.

It works well enough I guess. Once they turn 13 and go to the junior league or the babe ruth league or whatever, then they play real ball with leads and true steals.

Raderick · 06-16-2004, 12:28 AM

Where I played, we didn't have Little League, but instead, we had Pony League. It is a carbon copy of Little League except we could wear metal cleats, and steal without the ball crossing the plate, something Little League restricts. So I may not have the knowledge about this as some of the others who did play or coach Little League.

crackpott · 06-16-2004, 12:51 AM

i coach in the exact same situation as the league you're talking about. Yes, kids can easily steal. Yes, it's frustrating. However it's even more annoying when you tell the kid to steal and they DON'T worried that they'll be thrown out.

Last year we had a catcher who could gun down players at third no problem, and had a chance at second. This year... not even close.

CBLCardinals · 06-16-2004, 01:19 AM

this is truly a stupid rule. What fun is it for all singles to turn into runners easily stealing 2nd and then 3rd base???

Back in my Little League (11 & 12 year olds), kids could only steal once the catcher had the ball (or passed balls) and NO leadoffs.

disposableheros · 06-16-2004, 01:20 AM

the logic behind you're league implementing it (they do it, so we should) bothers me, but i think they should be allowed to steal

that just means the fundamentals of the catcher position need to be taught (footwork, etc.), instead of just putting the biggest guy with the least coordination back there

drprestwood · 06-16-2004, 01:37 AM

When I played at that age, we definitely had a no leadoff rule and only allowed steals when the ball crossed the plate. It was fine, and stealing 2nd was still very often successful against teams with a weak catcher.

Spielman · 06-19-2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

the logic behind you're league implementing it (they do it, so we should) bothers me, but i think they should be allowed to steal

that just means the fundamentals of the catcher position need to be taught (footwork, etc.), instead of just putting the biggest guy with the least coordination back there

Problem with that is, if NOBODY on the team is going to be able to throw runners out, why bother having a catcher with a good arm back there?

If you're trying to make the league work well as a feeder for the high school, then try to set it up so that the positions select for the right attributes, at least. Allowing leadoffs and no restrictions on stealing is silly with 60' basepaths, because you wind up selecting your catcher for the wrong reasons.

No leadoffs, no stealing until the ball crosses the plate, and advancement on passed balls allowed works best from my experience. Catchers have to do all the things they ought to be doing in terms of blocking the plate, and actually have a chance at throwing out base-stealers. So you select for guys who actually have the skills they'll need when they're more advanced.

-Spielman

TheRockCT · 06-22-2004, 09:08 PM

When I played (as a 10 & 11 year old), our league rules stated that hit & runs were allowed, and if the batter missed the pitch, a stolen base was credited. But if I recall correctly, if a batter did not swing - a stolen base was STILL credited, it was just looked at from a standpoint of "tell the hitter to swing next time."

TotalEnd98 · 06-22-2004, 09:23 PM

The league I umpired in had three levels, A, AA, and Majors. In A, you could only steal home, and only the second half of the season. In AA, you could steal third and home. Majors, you could steal second as well. You had to wait until the ball crossed the plane of the plate in all three levels.

The catchers were fairly good, though. Stealing wasn't the rampant problem you seem to have; it happened more often than one might expect, but the good catchers had a good shot of getting them at third. The second year I umpired for Majors, there were four great catchers in the league (eight teams) that could gun runners down fairly frequently at second, as well.

sporr · 06-23-2004, 11:14 AM

My son is 10 and plays in the Majors. They are allowed to steal when the pitch crosses the plate. They are also allowed to take home on a Wild Pitch or Passed Ball. One thing that happened just a few games ago that I didn't realize was allowed though - runners can advance as long as the pitcher isn't on the mound with the ball. So, my son's team had a runner on 3rd base and the batter was walked. Well, as he got to 1st, their 1st-base coach said "Go, Go, GO!" and he rounded 1st base and headed to 2nd as the pitcher headed towards the mound. The pitcher saw him and ran towards him to force him back to 1st, but the runner on 3rd scored on the confusion. I just never realized that you could take 2nd on a walk!

06-15-2004, 04:41 PM	#1
Joe Shlabotnick Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Row 12, Seat 7 Posts: 291	Stealing and Leading Off in Youth Baseball My son is in a local baseball league with other 11 and 12-year-olds. They call it the "majors." The "minors" league is for 9 and 10-year-olds. This year, both leagues allow lead-offs and stealing without restriction. Also, players can score on a wild pitch or passed ball, and even advance to first on a dropped third strike. When my son was back in Minors, as well as last year, stealing was not allowed. Some of the Board members pushed through these rule changes for this year. The argument is the following ... we play teams from around the area, and THOSE teams steal and such, so we need to, also. Other arguments in favor include ... 1) this is a "feeder league" for the high school team, 2) it's the way the game is played, and 3) they'll need to do it soon so they may as well learn now. On the other hand, I am dismayed to watch these games in action (maybe biased a bit because my son pitches a lot) because EVERY steal attempt is successful, and 95% of the attempts to get from third to home on errors are succesful. The kids don't have the skills at this age, in my opinion, to fire a strike from home plate to second or third base, then have a fielder make a catch, have the guts to stay in there and make the tag, and actually make the tag. The proof of my point is that I have NEVER seen a failed steal attempt this year. And what is being learned by this? I don't really know. It's like we played when we were five ... get a hit, and just keep running. So what's your opinion? It's become quite a controversy here, with a small but vocal group of parents who are very unhappy with the rule. __________________ This space for rent.

06-15-2004, 06:32 PM	#2
Teddyballgame Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 332	It's stupid, short basepaths and lack of catcher arm strength are going to let everyone steal. What an absurd idea. When I played in the "majors", I was a catcher. We had the steal only when the ball crosses the plate rule, even still the steal rate was wicked high. I like to pride myself on the fact I was the "most feared" catcher in the league because I had the best arm. It made up for my sissy abilities that limited me to only hitting singles, walking or striking out. __________________ The roads in America are paved with cheese

06-15-2004, 06:37 PM	#3
Rob in Phoenix Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 41	60' basepaths suck. Get your kid up into the next level with 90' bases if you want him to develop skills that will allow him to one day punch his ticket to the major leagues. He won’t learn jack crap with those 60' basepaths and pitchers who couldn't find the strike zone with a radar. __________________ WOBL - Arizona Diamondbacks FOLB - Dallas Kingmans ROB STOKES - REMEMBER THE NAME!

06-15-2004, 06:58 PM	#4
nate7891 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 553	i also had the steal rule that you can go when the ball crosses the plate..that made it plenty hard to get there before the ball...but in high school you will need to learn how to steal and learn how to time pitches so its a good start. __________________ Keeping idiots in suspense. "If they blew up Wrigley tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me at all. That ivy is nasty, the infield grass is waist high, and they definitely have the most vulgar fans." -- Houston Astros outfielder Lance Berkman. Easiest job in Sports: Third Base Coach Job Requirements: Depth perception, and ability to do “the windmill”.

06-15-2004, 06:59 PM	#5
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	if somebody steals on ya...have the pitcher bean him next time up. __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

06-15-2004, 09:00 PM	#7
jarmenia Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa, FL USA Posts: 4,503	unfortunately as a baseball coach myself, I would prefer if kids could not steal in little league at all. I coach 13 - 14 year olds and for the 13 year olds, this is the first season they play on 90 foot bases and 60' 6" distance to the mound. With the lack of quality coaches in little league, I spend more than half the year correcting the incorrect fundementals that are taught because they are the key to winning games at the lower levels. The kids don't learn how to steal a base correctly because they don't need to. Even the slowest kid in the league steals. Then they come up to the next level and they get picked off and thrown out like crazy and I get parents and kids asking why my johnny doesn't steal more. BTW, I do not have any kids so I consider myself fairly objective when it comes to evaluating players. John.

06-15-2004, 09:07 PM	#8
Hank Greenberg Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 460	I played catcher for a while when I was like 13. We had that, you can go when the ball cross's the plate rule. Kids kept stealing on me..... I pitched as well, I pitched the last few innings of one game. Some little f'er was running on me all day (I threw out like 3 kids all year), so I through a pickoff attempt at his head 3 times. He got the message.

06-15-2004, 09:28 PM	#9
andjbock Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Somerville, MA, USA Bats: Right Throws: Left Posts: 3,640	I'm of on both sides here. Assuming that there are a minor league, majors and babe ruth, I think it that stealing should not be allowed in minors and of course allowed in babe ruth. Majors, however was a "fence" league when I played. Since I was born in the end of August and the cut off was a week brefore me. I was the oldest player in the league my second year of majors. I wanted to steal, because I knew it was easy. Kids need to be able to steal when they are in Majors I guess because it is good prep work for high school. Babe Ruth and HS baseball were in the same year for me, so I was almost behind. Almost because in Majors you could run on passed balls, so I did. Catchers arms aren't much until age 14 and even then. So it is tough and I can't really decide.

06-15-2004, 11:44 PM	#10
This Is Not Here Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 328	I coach in the Majors and we have the rule where you can only steal when the ball crosses the plate. You can advance on wild pitches/pass balls. If theres a wild pitch with a runner on 3rd, the runner must slide at the plate. Whenever you get guys on the corners, you know the other team is going to steal 2nd and you cant do **** bout it. It works well enough I guess. Once they turn 13 and go to the junior league or the babe ruth league or whatever, then they play real ball with leads and true steals. __________________

06-16-2004, 12:28 AM	#11
Raderick Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,737	Where I played, we didn't have Little League, but instead, we had Pony League. It is a carbon copy of Little League except we could wear metal cleats, and steal without the ball crossing the plate, something Little League restricts. So I may not have the knowledge about this as some of the others who did play or coach Little League. __________________

06-16-2004, 12:51 AM	#12
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	i coach in the exact same situation as the league you're talking about. Yes, kids can easily steal. Yes, it's frustrating. However it's even more annoying when you tell the kid to steal and they DON'T worried that they'll be thrown out. Last year we had a catcher who could gun down players at third no problem, and had a chance at second. This year... not even close. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

06-16-2004, 01:19 AM	#13
CBLCardinals OOTP Roster Team Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,072	this is truly a stupid rule. What fun is it for all singles to turn into runners easily stealing 2nd and then 3rd base??? Back in my Little League (11 & 12 year olds), kids could only steal once the catcher had the ball (or passed balls) and NO leadoffs.

06-16-2004, 01:20 AM	#14
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	the logic behind you're league implementing it (they do it, so we should) bothers me, but i think they should be allowed to steal that just means the fundamentals of the catcher position need to be taught (footwork, etc.), instead of just putting the biggest guy with the least coordination back there __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

06-16-2004, 01:37 AM	#15
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	When I played at that age, we definitely had a no leadoff rule and only allowed steals when the ball crossed the plate. It was fine, and stealing 2nd was still very often successful against teams with a weak catcher.

06-22-2004, 09:08 PM	#17
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	When I played (as a 10 & 11 year old), our league rules stated that hit & runs were allowed, and if the batter missed the pitch, a stolen base was credited. But if I recall correctly, if a batter did not swing - a stolen base was STILL credited, it was just looked at from a standpoint of "tell the hitter to swing next time." __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA *NABA Champions: 2013

06-22-2004, 09:23 PM	#18
TotalEnd98 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: New York Posts: 1,687	The league I umpired in had three levels, A, AA, and Majors. In A, you could only steal home, and only the second half of the season. In AA, you could steal third and home. Majors, you could steal second as well. You had to wait until the ball crossed the plane of the plate in all three levels. The catchers were fairly good, though. Stealing wasn't the rampant problem you seem to have; it happened more often than one might expect, but the good catchers had a good shot of getting them at third. The second year I umpired for Majors, there were four great catchers in the league (eight teams) that could gun runners down fairly frequently at second, as well. __________________ OTBL - Scandinavia Cartoon Heroes This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper.

06-23-2004, 11:14 AM	#19
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	My son is 10 and plays in the Majors. They are allowed to steal when the pitch crosses the plate. They are also allowed to take home on a Wild Pitch or Passed Ball. One thing that happened just a few games ago that I didn't realize was allowed though - runners can advance as long as the pitcher isn't on the mound with the ball. So, my son's team had a runner on 3rd base and the batter was walked. Well, as he got to 1st, their 1st-base coach said "Go, Go, GO!" and he rounded 1st base and headed to 2nd as the pitcher headed towards the mound. The pitcher saw him and ran towards him to force him back to 1st, but the runner on 3rd scored on the confusion. I just never realized that you could take 2nd on a walk!