HR's.. enough is enough

Smaegol · 07-03-2002, 01:56 PM

Last night, 62 Homers were hit around the league. 62!!!!!!! Including 12 in 1 game (Chicago-Detroit). Think about that... 12 HRs in 1 game. Baseball is turning into a circus and the sport is ruined. Ty Cobb must be turning in his grave. An insider report on ESPN the other night was on about these hitters on Steroids now days. One guy from St. Louis' Organization was talking about how Mcguire had to sit out a game once because he was so saturated with creatine and other supplements that he couldnt even lift a baseball bat. Why does Barry Bonds get to wear that ridiculously sized elbow shield and hang over the top of home plate?? Everytime he walks he has to undress himself practically.
Is anyone else sick of this garbage? Fans should be the ones going on strike. Ichiro plays baseball the way it was meant to be played. To me, dropping a bunt down and stealing 2nd and third or beating out an infield singe with hustle is so much more exciting then some steroid pumped arrogant prick hitting a homerun when he's allowed to stand on the plate. It should enfuriate you people that you pay $20.00 a ticket to see players make several million a year give a half-ass effort and not care about the outcome of thier own games (hell.. the make $$ either way, right?)

What happened to guys like Cobb, and Gwynn, and Fisk??

Sigh,
Smaegol

John C · 07-03-2002, 02:30 PM

To me, it seems home runs are down, actually. When only five players in the NL have 20 home runs or more, it just seems like this year has been more of a pitching year, in terms of pitchers reclaiming the inside part of the plate, and you've had to win a baseball game by other means. If someone has stats that contradict this, please inform me, and I will rescind my comment about the home runs.

As far as Bonds is concerned, his pad isn't that big. Sheffield's is bigger. I got to see him very upclose (two rows behind home plate) in their 11-6 win over the Pads last week. He was walked three times, twice intentionally. He has 104 walks this year. It's not the elbow pad that's doing it. It's that he's the best hitter in the game right now, bar none. With respect to Ichiro, Bonds is the only one in the game who can beat you by hitting the ball anywhere (Ichiro is not a power hitter, obviously). That's why he's going to be contending for the Triple Crown in September (well, the RBI is a major issue, given that anytime there are runners on base, they walk him). He's just the most dangerous HITTER in the league (I didn't say PLAYER. I think Damon and Ichiro are better overall players, simply because they can run all over the place, draw the walk, and make pitchers think while their on the basepaths, causing them to slip up mentally, and throw meat to the bread and butter guys. Barry used to do that, but he's gotten older.

But, I do feel that there has been a reformation of pitching this year, and it's wonderful. A lot can be made about the changing of rules for elbow pads, shinguards, etc. I think pitchers have just had enough. If the umps they stop giving a warning for the second time a player is knocked down, then the game will go back to the way it was in the 70s and 80s, when there was a lot more strategy in the game (I'm not saying there isn't now. I hold the believe that Bill James does, that the game in the 70s and 80s was much more diverse and had much more strategy involved).

Peace
John

Drinky Crow · 07-03-2002, 02:33 PM

I hear you. I had no idea about the homers hit last night until I read your post. It kind of makes homers not too interesting or impressive. This is just another reason my interest in Real World baseball has been flagging for years. The things about it that made me a fan have declined an awful lot.

They will probably have to raise ticket prices to pay for all those extra balls going into the seats!

Arbiter · 07-03-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drinky Crow

They will probably have to raise ticket prices to pay for all those extra balls going into the seats!

I'm guessing you were being facetious, but this statement makes no economic sense.

Jermanfu · 07-03-2002, 03:03 PM

Smaegol,
I agree, there are alot of egos out there. And alot of those egos are hitting balls out of the park at alarming rates, but let's keep in mind, there are alot of Lance Berkman's out there. The guys who are humble and play the game right but still hit alot of home runs.

DreamTeams · 07-03-2002, 03:06 PM

We demand our game back!

Check this out... www.vbba.org

Looks like some folks are actually doing something about it in a different way.

Smaegol · 07-03-2002, 05:22 PM

Yeah, there will always be the Lance Berkmans put there. But for every one of those there are 50 Barry Bonds. And it pisses me off. Who was that guy the other night who hit a popup to the pitcher, jogged to first, and got thrown out when the pitcher dropped the ball!! With 2 outs and runners on!!!!! There are just too many players who have no respect for the game or its history. Baseball helps this along by knowingly allowing players to use steroids and heat temper thier bats and the stadiums.... Look at stadiums now days. half the parks out there have little league dimensions in the alleys. Look at Pac Belle Park, 307 to right field?? Are you kidding me?? Yankee stadium, 314 down the lines?!?!?

Does anyone else agree that A-B-C Baseball (bunting,stealing,manufacturing runs) is so much more exciting and takes so much more talent? Im so sick of this Homer Derby that they call MLB. Watch Sportscenter every night to see the Homers - er, highlights from each game..

sigh,
Smaegol

Eric · 07-03-2002, 05:36 PM

I have a cousin named homer that people would beat up every day in school just so they could say they hit a homer......

Arbiter · 07-03-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smaegol
Look at stadiums now days. half the parks out there have little league dimensions in the alleys. Look at Pac Belle Park, 307 to right field?? Are you kidding me?? Yankee stadium, 314 down the lines?!?!?

You do realize that these would have been *above-average* dimensions throughout a good portion of history? Heck, Yankee Stadium's what, 20 feet deeper down the lines today than pre-remodeling?

Jason Moyer · 07-03-2002, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John C
To me, it seems home runs are down, actually. When only five players in the NL have 20 home runs or more, it just seems like this year has been more of a pitching year

5 NL players having 20 homeruns in the first half is a pitcher's year? I'd hate to think of what you consider a hitter's year.

Edit: As far as curtailing homeruns goes, they need to ban body armor, regulate the width of bat handles, regulate the tenacity of baseballs, and penalize players whose batting stances put their bodies in the strike zone (or, alternately, move the batter's box back 3-6 inches).

Jason

darkhorse · 07-03-2002, 07:03 PM

What baseball really needs is a fookin' commissioner and a fookin' time machine to take me back to before the last strike so that I would give a fook. Aw fook it, it'll nevah happen.

Carplos · 07-03-2002, 08:17 PM

307 with a 25 foot wall.

Pac Bell has been a GREAT pitchers park in it's 2 years of existence. Look at the stats. And don't tell me "BONDS HIT 73 HR!!!", he hit 36 of them on the road.

Chief Wahoo · 07-03-2002, 08:21 PM

Just a thought. Do you think people in the 1930's were having this same conversation?

TheRockCT · 07-04-2002, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chief Wahoo
Just a thought. Do you think people in the 1930's were having this same conversation?

I'm sure of it.

I agree it's gotten fairly ridiculous for the game to have surpassed Roger Maris's 61 homers five or six times in the last five years, but there's very little we can do about it. The moneymakers in the business aren't going to swing the pendulum back towards the pitchers anytime soon, because they feel the "casual" baseball fan spends their money for tickets ONLY to see the long ball.

I don't really foresee anyone cracking 65 or 70 this year, but if guys like Thome, Sosa, or Bonds (ugh) do start on a tear in the 2nd half, 60 again is definitely not out of the question. Hell, even Alfonso "freaking" Soriano is on pace to hit 40-45.

Then again, that's if there IS any baseball in a month or so.

Arbiter · 07-04-2002, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheRockCT

I'm sure of it.

I agree it's gotten fairly ridiculous for the game to have surpassed Roger Maris's 61 homers five or six times in the last five years, but there's very little we can do about it.

To tie this back into the post to which you replied, there was no shortage of people who were quite upset that Williamson's, or Schulte's, or Cravath's, homer marks were being surpassed several times every year back in the '30s....

Ahhh, Frank Schulte... he was Sammy Sosa, before Sammy was Sammy...

Chief Wahoo · 07-04-2002, 01:40 AM

I look back at the 1930's as a grea era for baseball. I wonder if in 2072 if they will look back on this time as a great era?

Jason Moyer · 07-04-2002, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carplos
307 with a 25 foot wall.

Pac Bell has been a GREAT pitchers park in it's 2 years of existence. Look at the stats. And don't tell me "BONDS HIT 73 HR!!!", he hit 36 of them on the road.

If you adjust Bonds stats based on his park and move them to the run context from 1962-1968, when runs were scarce, his HR total comes to 77. That's how badly Pac Bell affects HR's. Since it's a small park, I'd also expect singles/doubles/triples to be below the league average as well.

Candlestick park was only slightly larger, and was one of the hardest places in baseball history to hit a HR.

Anyone know why it's so hard to hit one out in San Fran? The prevailing winds?

Jason

Jason Moyer · 07-04-2002, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chief Wahoo
Just a thought. Do you think people in the 1930's were having this same conversation?

Yes. Of course, baseball officials actually did something about the offensive surge then.

If Bart Giamatti were still alive the homerun surge would have ended 5 years ago. For that matter it would have likely never started. MLB has tested the tenacity of baseballs for years, and has allowed the balls to become livelier without creating new regulations. A strong commissioner would have put a regulation in place before it became a serious problem. Body armor would have been regulated the moment it appeared.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I care anymore. I hope there is a strike this year because maybe the MLB will finally die completely (the sport won't die, and professional leagues won't die, but I wouldn't be surprised if the MLB itself did). At least we wouldn't have to read any more of Joe Morgan's articles on espn.com.

Jason

holyroller · 07-04-2002, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer

If you adjust Bonds stats based on his park and move them to the run context from 1962-1968, when runs were scarce, his HR total comes to 77. That's how badly Pac Bell affects HR's. Since it's a small park, I'd also expect singles/doubles/triples to be below the league average as well.

You would be correct in that assumption. Here are the PacBell park factors for the last two seasons.

2001

AVG 92
R 82
2B 104
3B 139
HR 62 (!!!!)

2000
AVG 95
R 84
2B 93
3B 86
HR 91

It's interesting that there was such a difference between the 2B and 3B factors the last two season. Also, while it cut down on homeruns in 2000, it downright slashed them in 2001. Another interesting thing, try adjusting Bonds's homerun total last year assuming he played his home games in the pre-humidor Coors field. It's pretty humorous.

CMH · 07-04-2002, 09:05 AM

not tryin to tell you that ballpark factors are ridiculous. i dont want anyone flippin on me. but i am gonna tell you why i choose to ignore them

its actually pretty simple...see the HR factors in PacBell in 2000 and 2001?

notice the huge difference?

well, that tells me (in my own opinion) that while ballpark factors do exist, they also change from year to year. with that in mind, i can not assume that a player would have hit a certain number of homeruns playing in ballpark X b/c the factors change constantly.

i mean, really...and i'm not tryin to change anyone's mind, but maybe someone could understand why i choose to ignore them...but really shouldnt a ballpark remain consistent? i know things can change like weather, winds, etc. but in ONE year? those factors scream geographic shift to me, but that cant make sense in one year. so what happened? why did HRs drop so much? maybe if someone could give me a really good reason, something that sounds valid, i might change my whole persective on this ballpark factor index.

07-03-2002, 01:56 PM	#1
Smaegol Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 111	HR's.. enough is enough Last night, 62 Homers were hit around the league. 62!!!!!!! Including 12 in 1 game (Chicago-Detroit). Think about that... 12 HRs in 1 game. Baseball is turning into a circus and the sport is ruined. Ty Cobb must be turning in his grave. An insider report on ESPN the other night was on about these hitters on Steroids now days. One guy from St. Louis' Organization was talking about how Mcguire had to sit out a game once because he was so saturated with creatine and other supplements that he couldnt even lift a baseball bat. Why does Barry Bonds get to wear that ridiculously sized elbow shield and hang over the top of home plate?? Everytime he walks he has to undress himself practically. Is anyone else sick of this garbage? Fans should be the ones going on strike. Ichiro plays baseball the way it was meant to be played. To me, dropping a bunt down and stealing 2nd and third or beating out an infield singe with hustle is so much more exciting then some steroid pumped arrogant prick hitting a homerun when he's allowed to stand on the plate. It should enfuriate you people that you pay $20.00 a ticket to see players make several million a year give a half-ass effort and not care about the outcome of thier own games (hell.. the make $$ either way, right?) What happened to guys like Cobb, and Gwynn, and Fisk?? Sigh, Smaegol

07-03-2002, 02:30 PM	#2
John C Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albion, RI Posts: 2,286 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	To me, it seems home runs are down, actually. When only five players in the NL have 20 home runs or more, it just seems like this year has been more of a pitching year, in terms of pitchers reclaiming the inside part of the plate, and you've had to win a baseball game by other means. If someone has stats that contradict this, please inform me, and I will rescind my comment about the home runs. As far as Bonds is concerned, his pad isn't that big. Sheffield's is bigger. I got to see him very upclose (two rows behind home plate) in their 11-6 win over the Pads last week. He was walked three times, twice intentionally. He has 104 walks this year. It's not the elbow pad that's doing it. It's that he's the best hitter in the game right now, bar none. With respect to Ichiro, Bonds is the only one in the game who can beat you by hitting the ball anywhere (Ichiro is not a power hitter, obviously). That's why he's going to be contending for the Triple Crown in September (well, the RBI is a major issue, given that anytime there are runners on base, they walk him). He's just the most dangerous HITTER in the league (I didn't say PLAYER. I think Damon and Ichiro are better overall players, simply because they can run all over the place, draw the walk, and make pitchers think while their on the basepaths, causing them to slip up mentally, and throw meat to the bread and butter guys. Barry used to do that, but he's gotten older. But, I do feel that there has been a reformation of pitching this year, and it's wonderful. A lot can be made about the changing of rules for elbow pads, shinguards, etc. I think pitchers have just had enough. If the umps they stop giving a warning for the second time a player is knocked down, then the game will go back to the way it was in the 70s and 80s, when there was a lot more strategy in the game (I'm not saying there isn't now. I hold the believe that Bill James does, that the game in the 70s and 80s was much more diverse and had much more strategy involved). Peace John __________________ Facebook \| My Videos

07-03-2002, 03:03 PM	#5
Jermanfu All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA. Posts: 899	Smaegol, I agree, there are alot of egos out there. And alot of those egos are hitting balls out of the park at alarming rates, but let's keep in mind, there are alot of Lance Berkman's out there. The guys who are humble and play the game right but still hit alot of home runs. __________________ "I took the two most expensive asprins in history." - Wally Pipp on his decision to sit out a game with a headache which let Lou Gehrig into the lineup for the first time. http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/Jermanfu/

07-03-2002, 03:06 PM	#6
DreamTeams Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,522	We demand our game back! Check this out... www.vbba.org Looks like some folks are actually doing something about it in a different way. __________________

07-03-2002, 05:22 PM	#7
Smaegol Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 111	Sigh Yeah, there will always be the Lance Berkmans put there. But for every one of those there are 50 Barry Bonds. And it pisses me off. Who was that guy the other night who hit a popup to the pitcher, jogged to first, and got thrown out when the pitcher dropped the ball!! With 2 outs and runners on!!!!! There are just too many players who have no respect for the game or its history. Baseball helps this along by knowingly allowing players to use steroids and heat temper thier bats and the stadiums.... Look at stadiums now days. half the parks out there have little league dimensions in the alleys. Look at Pac Belle Park, 307 to right field?? Are you kidding me?? Yankee stadium, 314 down the lines?!?!? Does anyone else agree that A-B-C Baseball (bunting,stealing,manufacturing runs) is so much more exciting and takes so much more talent? Im so sick of this Homer Derby that they call MLB. Watch Sportscenter every night to see the Homers - er, highlights from each game.. sigh, Smaegol

07-03-2002, 02:33 PM	#3
Drinky Crow Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lost Angeles, CA Posts: 152	I hear you. I had no idea about the homers hit last night until I read your post. It kind of makes homers not too interesting or impressive. This is just another reason my interest in Real World baseball has been flagging for years. The things about it that made me a fan have declined an awful lot. They will probably have to raise ticket prices to pay for all those extra balls going into the seats!

07-03-2002, 05:36 PM	#8
Eric All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 1,234	I have a cousin named homer that people would beat up every day in school just so they could say they hit a homer......

07-03-2002, 07:03 PM	#11
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	What baseball really needs is a fookin' commissioner and a fookin' time machine to take me back to before the last strike so that I would give a fook. Aw fook it, it'll nevah happen. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

07-03-2002, 08:17 PM	#12
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,902 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	307 with a 25 foot wall. Pac Bell has been a GREAT pitchers park in it's 2 years of existence. Look at the stats. And don't tell me "BONDS HIT 73 HR!!!", he hit 36 of them on the road.

07-03-2002, 08:21 PM	#13
Chief Wahoo Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Moro, IL Posts: 346	Just a thought. Do you think people in the 1930's were having this same conversation? __________________ Chief Wahoo

07-04-2002, 01:40 AM	#16
Chief Wahoo Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Moro, IL Posts: 346	I look back at the 1930's as a grea era for baseball. I wonder if in 2072 if they will look back on this time as a great era? __________________ Chief Wahoo

07-04-2002, 09:05 AM	#20
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	not tryin to tell you that ballpark factors are ridiculous. i dont want anyone flippin on me. but i am gonna tell you why i choose to ignore them its actually pretty simple...see the HR factors in PacBell in 2000 and 2001? notice the huge difference? well, that tells me (in my own opinion) that while ballpark factors do exist, they also change from year to year. with that in mind, i can not assume that a player would have hit a certain number of homeruns playing in ballpark X b/c the factors change constantly. i mean, really...and i'm not tryin to change anyone's mind, but maybe someone could understand why i choose to ignore them...but really shouldnt a ballpark remain consistent? i know things can change like weather, winds, etc. but in ONE year? those factors scream geographic shift to me, but that cant make sense in one year. so what happened? why did HRs drop so much? maybe if someone could give me a really good reason, something that sounds valid, i might change my whole persective on this ballpark factor index.