For people who play out their games - A Favor

SunDevil · 05-23-2004, 11:36 PM

Since I bought OOTP6 at the release date, I have seen very few occasions when the option to tag up from second base is given. I am asking a favor from the people who play out their games.

If they could for the next week keep track of the number of times when its less than 2 outs, with a runner on second base with third base empty, and there is a fly ball to the outfield, and is given an option to tag up. So far I have played out about 100 games, and I have been given this option about 15 times, out of a total of 107 chances. This is with all types of runners and their running instincts.

In a week please post the number of games you have played out, and the number of times you were given the option to tag up from second base. Thank you to anyone who can help me.

Bobbuttons · 05-24-2004, 01:24 AM

It depends on how deep the ball is hit. If the play by play just says fly ball or short fly or easy fly ball to right then it's not deep enough. If it's pretty well hit then you have the option.

MizzouRah · 05-24-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobbuttons
It depends on how deep the ball is hit. If the play by play just says fly ball or short fly or easy fly ball to right then it's not deep enough. If it's pretty well hit then you have the option.

Now I see why people love the ball flight graphic in Puresim.

Todd

SunDevil · 05-24-2004, 02:21 AM

Bobbuttons,

If you are talking about a runner on third, and the tag up option showing up that is different. I am talking about the option showing up with a runner on second base. I have had plenty of balls hit to the warning track, and the option is not given. As I stated before, I have played out 100 games so far, and have only got the tag up option for a runner on second base 15 times. Please keep track of how many games you play this week and how many times you get the option to tag up from second base. Thanks.

P.S. I am not saying there is anything wrong yet, and I am not trying to have a debate. If people could just keep track for this week and post their results, that would help a lot.

Art99 · 05-24-2004, 03:43 AM

I've played nearly 2 seasons playing all 162 games for my teams and I don't know the frequency tagging up from 2nd occurs but if you have a fast guy on 2nd it will come up - if your players are slow you won't get it much. Depends on if ball is hit to RF too and what the fielders arm strength is too I'd think. Balls hit to LF you should get it the least unless the fielder has a super bad arm. I'll try to watch this closer to see if it works as it should.

mh2365 · 05-24-2004, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TrueCardinalFan
Now I see why people love the ball flight graphic in Puresim.

Todd

Too bad it takes 2 1/1 days to watch the flight of the ball!!!

Note: Sarcastic reference to the incredibly slow sim times of Pure Sim

joncon16 · 05-24-2004, 09:39 AM

I agree that the option to tag up is not given nearly enough. I've had many of my players robbed of hits with fantastic diving catches, but then not been allowed to tag up from second. Intuitively shouldn't that runner -- no matter how slow -- be tagging up if the fielder is horizontal making a catch?

Tekneek · 05-24-2004, 10:23 AM

I have only played out 5 games, and in 4 of them I had the option to tag up from second at least once. It not only needs to be deep, but it needs to be to right-center or right field, at least for the opportunities that I had.

Sweed · 05-24-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joncon16
I agree that the option to tag up is not given nearly enough. I've had many of my players robbed of hits with fantastic diving catches, but then not been allowed to tag up from second. Intuitively shouldn't that runner -- no matter how slow -- be tagging up if the fielder is horizontal making a catch?

Don't know if I'd agree with that. First I watch a lot of MLB and can't say I see too many runners tag up at second. Perhaps someone should do the same test watching real baseball ( get 100 opportunities and see how many IRL tag up). I don't know if 15 is too high but I don't believe it's too low.

With regard to the diving play I would say it is less likely the runner will tag up, here's why. If a ball is hit and the fielder ends up diving than the runner is going to go half way to third to make sure it doesn't fall in for a hit. If it falls in he scores, if caught he has to go back. He has no way of knowing if the fielder will dive or not until the fielder actually dives. So let's say he assumes the fielder will dive and waits to tag at second. Now the fielder doesn't dive but circles behind the ball and plays it on a hop, the runner in most cases now will not be able to score.

Before anyone asks for this to be changed I think we'll need some solid numbers to back it up.

joncon16 · 05-24-2004, 02:49 PM

That's a solid argument Sweed, but it depends on the preference of the runner/team/manager and the current game situation if someone is going to tag up at second or not. There are too many variables to get really accurate numbers. Considering that OOTP is the best baseball sim available wouldn't it make sense that I could have my runner tag up if I so desire and you could have him go halfway? It would only add to the realism of the game.

ctorg · 05-24-2004, 03:07 PM

It's not very common, but I did have it happen twice in a couple of games I played yesterday.

Tekneek · 05-24-2004, 03:11 PM

However, I cannot remember the last time I saw someone tag up at second in a real MLB game. It's a somewhat rare play.

baniel1 · 05-24-2004, 04:35 PM

Frankly - I've never noticed it to happen at an abnornal level.. I'll keep my eyes on it though.

joncon16 · 05-24-2004, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tekneek
However, I cannot remember the last time I saw someone tag up at second in a real MLB game. It's a somewhat rare play.

No offense, but you must not watch that much baseball. It's very common in the late innings of games when the game is still close (within a run or two).

Zweiblumen · 05-24-2004, 04:55 PM

Using event file data from www.retrosheet.org, a quick check of the 1992 season shows that in 2106 games a runner advanced from 2-3 on a fly ball to the outfield 893 times, or about once every 2.36 games.

Note that this isn't quite what you were looking for, since it also includes cases where there was a man on 3rd, but the event files from retrosheet don't make it immediately clear on which plays 3B was empty.

Edit: Smacks self on forhead...of course, if there was a guy on 3rd before a runner went 2-3 on a fly then the guy on 3rd must have gone home. 242 of those 893 times there was a runner who went 3-H on the same play, so I guess it happened 651 times with 3rd empty.

I haven't figured out the event file notation for someone being thrown out trying to tag and advance, so I may be missing some attempts....

acs1970 · 05-24-2004, 05:36 PM

Last week, Jim Edmunds advanced from 2nd to 3rd with one out (the fly that was just hit and caught) and the St. Louis announcers made a relatively big deal about it, saying how seldom you see it happen. Hrabowsky (sp?) went on to say how he thinks more managers need to re-think their approach with "none out" in those situations. The announcers strongly suggested that it is a rare play.

Being from St. Louis, I watch tons of baseball, and I have to admit that I seldom recall seeing a player tag up from 2nd in the last few years. Not that I've never seen it, but its been rare.

I would guess you don't see it with 2 outs as much, because it isn't worth the risk. A man on second will most likely score on any non-infield single with two outs, anyway, so why risk sending him to third? Moving the man from 2nd to 3rd with less than two outs often runs into the same circumstance, though--is it worth the risk when I have less than 2 outs? I'd never want to make the second out (let alone the 3rd) by advancing a runner.

Zweiblumen's number sounds a bit high to me, though I'm sure he knows how to read stats. However, it doesn't say how many times the option was there (how many outfield flyballs occurred with someone on 2nd, less than 2 outs).

Using his modified number of 651, that works out to once every 3.235 games. (Note we don't know how many times it were possible, so we can't percentage of opportunity.)

However, because you don't see this when it is presented for the computer team, you should only see this opportunity about once every 6.47 games (since you don't see when the computer opponent is offered this opportunity, we have to assume its roughly half the time).

If you've been presented this opportunity 15 times in 100 games, you are DEAD ON based on those numbers. In 100 games, you should be able to tag up 15.5 times!

Hope that made sense!

Chad

---
Edited--I should point out, I think it was "The Mad Hungarian" that was commenting on the tag up from second to third. I could be mistaken. I certainly don't want to speak for him if I am mis-remembering who was talking at the time!

Zweiblumen · 05-24-2004, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acs1970
Zweiblumen's number sounds a bit high to me, though I'm sure he knows how to read stats. However, it doesn't say how many times the option was there (how many outfield flyballs occurred with someone on 2nd, less than 2 outs).

Yeah, without writing some sort of script to follow the play by play scoring in the event file this would be hard. You only get informed about runner movement, so the record for a fly out with no one on and a fly out with a guy that had to stay at second look, sadly, the same. It's certainly possible to hack together a perl script or something to keep track of where runners are and so on, but I don't have the time now, so I figured some quick work with egrep would get the job done for the time being

SunDevil · 05-24-2004, 06:19 PM

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback, everyone has had something informative to say. Based on the calculations, and the information presented you guys might be right, be I really wanted was just the option to tag up from second base, not so much of whether it happens or not. I think the game has the part where the ai advances from second to third on a fly ball correct.

In the next 4 games I have played, with a runner on second with (95 speed, 90 instincts) and (88 speed and 86 instincts) balls were hit to the wall at center field, and to the warning track in right field respectivily, and the both times no option to tag up from second base was given. So as I stated before please keep an eye on this, but it is getting a little frustrating not to be even given a choice to advance the runners. That is all I am asking for. Again thanks for the feedback, and for the help.

acs1970 · 05-24-2004, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zweiblumen
Yeah, without writing some sort of script to follow the play by play scoring in the event file this would be hard. You only get informed about runner movement, so the record for a fly out with no one on and a fly out with a guy that had to stay at second look, sadly, the same. It's certainly possible to hack together a perl script or something to keep track of where runners are and so on, but I don't have the time now, so I figured some quick work with egrep would get the job done for the time being

I hope I didn't indicate that you hadn't provided good information! Under the circumstances, your info was great!

Question--does your info include only fly balls? Or are some of these possibly groundouts to first, with the runner advancing?

Bobbuttons · 05-24-2004, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SunDevil
Bobbuttons,

If you are talking about a runner on third, and the tag up option showing up that is different. I am talking about the option showing up with a runner on second base. I have had plenty of balls hit to the warning track, and the option is not given. As I stated before, I have played out 100 games so far, and have only got the tag up option for a runner on second base 15 times. Please keep track of how many games you play this week and how many times you get the option to tag up from second base. Thanks.

P.S. I am not saying there is anything wrong yet, and I am not trying to have a debate. If people could just keep track for this week and post their results, that would help a lot.

I was referring to runners at second. And I also included that it needs to be hit to RF. I am not sure if there is any circumstance that the game lets you tag from second on a deep fly to left or center. I don't believe I have seen it. Just on deep flies to right.

05-23-2004, 11:36 PM	#1
SunDevil Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 373	For people who play out their games - A Favor Since I bought OOTP6 at the release date, I have seen very few occasions when the option to tag up from second base is given. I am asking a favor from the people who play out their games. If they could for the next week keep track of the number of times when its less than 2 outs, with a runner on second base with third base empty, and there is a fly ball to the outfield, and is given an option to tag up. So far I have played out about 100 games, and I have been given this option about 15 times, out of a total of 107 chances. This is with all types of runners and their running instincts. In a week please post the number of games you have played out, and the number of times you were given the option to tag up from second base. Thank you to anyone who can help me.

05-24-2004, 01:24 AM	#2
Bobbuttons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Picturesque Mentor-on-the-Lake, Ohio Posts: 3,708	It depends on how deep the ball is hit. If the play by play just says fly ball or short fly or easy fly ball to right then it's not deep enough. If it's pretty well hit then you have the option. __________________ Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do....cause they're fast! Gibson swings, and a fly ball to deep right field! This is gonna be a home run! Unbelievable! A home run for Gibson! And the Dodgers have won the game, 5 to 4; I don't believe what I just saw! I don't believe what I just saw!

05-24-2004, 03:07 PM	#11
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	It's not very common, but I did have it happen twice in a couple of games I played yesterday. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

05-24-2004, 04:55 PM	#15
Zweiblumen Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 326	Using event file data from www.retrosheet.org, a quick check of the 1992 season shows that in 2106 games a runner advanced from 2-3 on a fly ball to the outfield 893 times, or about once every 2.36 games. Note that this isn't quite what you were looking for, since it also includes cases where there was a man on 3rd, but the event files from retrosheet don't make it immediately clear on which plays 3B was empty. Edit: Smacks self on forhead...of course, if there was a guy on 3rd before a runner went 2-3 on a fly then the guy on 3rd must have gone home. 242 of those 893 times there was a runner who went 3-H on the same play, so I guess it happened 651 times with 3rd empty. I haven't figured out the event file notation for someone being thrown out trying to tag and advance, so I may be missing some attempts.... Last edited by Zweiblumen; 05-24-2004 at 05:05 PM.

05-24-2004, 05:36 PM	#16
acs1970 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 61	Last week, Jim Edmunds advanced from 2nd to 3rd with one out (the fly that was just hit and caught) and the St. Louis announcers made a relatively big deal about it, saying how seldom you see it happen. Hrabowsky (sp?) went on to say how he thinks more managers need to re-think their approach with "none out" in those situations. The announcers strongly suggested that it is a rare play. Being from St. Louis, I watch tons of baseball, and I have to admit that I seldom recall seeing a player tag up from 2nd in the last few years. Not that I've never seen it, but its been rare. I would guess you don't see it with 2 outs as much, because it isn't worth the risk. A man on second will most likely score on any non-infield single with two outs, anyway, so why risk sending him to third? Moving the man from 2nd to 3rd with less than two outs often runs into the same circumstance, though--is it worth the risk when I have less than 2 outs? I'd never want to make the second out (let alone the 3rd) by advancing a runner. Zweiblumen's number sounds a bit high to me, though I'm sure he knows how to read stats. However, it doesn't say how many times the option was there (how many outfield flyballs occurred with someone on 2nd, less than 2 outs). Using his modified number of 651, that works out to once every 3.235 games. (Note we don't know how many times it were possible, so we can't percentage of opportunity.) However, because you don't see this when it is presented for the computer team, you should only see this opportunity about once every 6.47 games (since you don't see when the computer opponent is offered this opportunity, we have to assume its roughly half the time). If you've been presented this opportunity 15 times in 100 games, you are DEAD ON based on those numbers. In 100 games, you should be able to tag up 15.5 times! Hope that made sense! Chad --- Edited--I should point out, I think it was "The Mad Hungarian" that was commenting on the tag up from second to third. I could be mistaken. I certainly don't want to speak for him if I am mis-remembering who was talking at the time! __________________ Chad S. Last edited by acs1970; 05-24-2004 at 05:39 PM.

05-24-2004, 02:21 AM	#4
SunDevil Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 373	Bobbuttons, If you are talking about a runner on third, and the tag up option showing up that is different. I am talking about the option showing up with a runner on second base. I have had plenty of balls hit to the warning track, and the option is not given. As I stated before, I have played out 100 games so far, and have only got the tag up option for a runner on second base 15 times. Please keep track of how many games you play this week and how many times you get the option to tag up from second base. Thanks. P.S. I am not saying there is anything wrong yet, and I am not trying to have a debate. If people could just keep track for this week and post their results, that would help a lot.

05-24-2004, 03:43 AM	#5
Art99 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 242	I've played nearly 2 seasons playing all 162 games for my teams and I don't know the frequency tagging up from 2nd occurs but if you have a fast guy on 2nd it will come up - if your players are slow you won't get it much. Depends on if ball is hit to RF too and what the fielders arm strength is too I'd think. Balls hit to LF you should get it the least unless the fielder has a super bad arm. I'll try to watch this closer to see if it works as it should.

05-24-2004, 09:39 AM	#7
joncon16 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Connecticut Posts: 112	I agree that the option to tag up is not given nearly enough. I've had many of my players robbed of hits with fantastic diving catches, but then not been allowed to tag up from second. Intuitively shouldn't that runner -- no matter how slow -- be tagging up if the fielder is horizontal making a catch?

05-24-2004, 10:23 AM	#8
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	I have only played out 5 games, and in 4 of them I had the option to tag up from second at least once. It not only needs to be deep, but it needs to be to right-center or right field, at least for the opportunities that I had.

05-24-2004, 02:49 PM	#10
joncon16 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Connecticut Posts: 112	That's a solid argument Sweed, but it depends on the preference of the runner/team/manager and the current game situation if someone is going to tag up at second or not. There are too many variables to get really accurate numbers. Considering that OOTP is the best baseball sim available wouldn't it make sense that I could have my runner tag up if I so desire and you could have him go halfway? It would only add to the realism of the game.

05-24-2004, 03:11 PM	#12
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	However, I cannot remember the last time I saw someone tag up at second in a real MLB game. It's a somewhat rare play.

05-24-2004, 04:35 PM	#13
baniel1 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 21	Frankly - I've never noticed it to happen at an abnornal level.. I'll keep my eyes on it though.

05-24-2004, 06:19 PM	#18
SunDevil Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 373	I would like to thank everyone for their feedback, everyone has had something informative to say. Based on the calculations, and the information presented you guys might be right, be I really wanted was just the option to tag up from second base, not so much of whether it happens or not. I think the game has the part where the ai advances from second to third on a fly ball correct. In the next 4 games I have played, with a runner on second with (95 speed, 90 instincts) and (88 speed and 86 instincts) balls were hit to the wall at center field, and to the warning track in right field respectivily, and the both times no option to tag up from second base was given. So as I stated before please keep an eye on this, but it is getting a little frustrating not to be even given a choice to advance the runners. That is all I am asking for. Again thanks for the feedback, and for the help.