More and more leagues are folding.... - Page 2

wireman · 05-10-2004, 01:07 PM

Quote:

originally posted by John C:
I talked to Stacy Bond recently, and he was all like "WATUP iM STACEEE WANNA JOYN MAH LEEG LOLZ~!!!1 1 IM SPICEE!"

"It's a terrible thing to lose your mind." -- Dan Quayle

(hope I got that right)

Karen Lutz · 05-10-2004, 01:14 PM

the oversaturation of online leagues has been here since the beginning of time. There are no more leagues folding today than there was a week ago, or a month ago, or anytime before that. Anyone who has had the unfortuneate circumstance of being in a league or a few that fold simply has some bad luck.

The only advice to give is that you either look for a long running league and hope it stays afloat, they aren't a guarentee, but they're more likely to last than ones that are just starting. But if you must join new ones, keep plugging away, eventually you will find a good one.

LivnLegend · 05-10-2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalker76
All I can say is that I've seen some leagues gone down and some were even good ones with good commishes.

Really? Can you give me some examples of "good" leagues with good commissioners folding?

fhomess · 05-10-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen Lutz
the oversaturation of online leagues has been here since the beginning of time.

C'mon, Markus hasn't been at it THAT long!

Aussie Mark · 05-10-2004, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
Really? Can you give me some examples of "good" leagues with good commissioners folding?

MLB1966
HHBC

Aussie Mark · 05-10-2004, 07:36 PM

My take on this debate is that online leagues are like small businesses. Around 50% of small businesses fold within the first 12 months, usually because the owner hasn't done his research, hasn't the requisite experience, or the necessary skills to run an effective business. Small businesses (and hence online leagues) that last are well run, offer a unique or rare product/service, and provide good customer service.

satchel · 05-10-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker76
Over the past few weeks more and more leagues have folded

This is anecdotal. If you have a hypothesis (such as ‘Many online leagues are folding’), then collect data to see if it supports your observation. (Side note: I love the Dave Barry quote in Sky’s sig; it’s the funniest thing Barry has ever said. It’s sexist, but it’s good-natured, and really refers to a segment of the female population, not all females.)

I’ve had the idea of running a ‘League watch’ post on this forum, tracking all new online leagues started here, for one year, to test the mortality rate. My main fear is that its results would cast a negative light on some aspect of online league culture, by highlighting failures.

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen Lutz
There are no more leagues folding today than...anytime...
Originally posted by Cooleyvol
I've never seen this as a problem at all...

I agree with these assessments.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aussie Mark
...online leagues are like small businesses. Around 50%...fold...

Great analogy.

05-10-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalker76
[B]Over the past few weeks more and more leagues have folded, no matter if real MLB, historical or fictional. And most of the still existing leagues I know are struggling to get all teams occupied.
I think we have reached our limits. Hopefully this "everybody opens his own league" will finally stop.

I haven't noticed that. The league I've ran for 7 sim seasons [currently in 8] and for three real years is still going strong. In fact, we haven't had a vacancy in 3 and a half sim seasons. And we all write articles and this and that.

And the league I participate in as an owner, the DBLC has been gouing strong for about twelve seasons and it only has one or two openings each season.

So, I hadn't noticed anything like this.

I think the key is in being selective on who you allow into your league. When I joined DBLC you had to fill out a pretty lengthy application and in total, it was about four pages of type. I run my league the same way.

That, by proxy, weeds out all of the 'flakes'. If a guy is willing to sit and type out four-five pages of history and what he would do in the league and this and that... chances are, he's a committed owner.

If a guy doesn't have time to do it or doesn't want to... then chances are, he will be the same way come league activity time. So who needs him?

Jase

satchel · 05-10-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by avwjase
When I joined DBLC you had to fill out a pretty lengthy application...about four pages of type. If a guy is willing to sit and type out four-five pages of history and what he would do in the league and this and that... chances are, he's a committed owner.

With all respect to Jase, this is another hypothesis. Is there a correlation between making a well-done OotP online league application and the activity or success of its submitting GM? One can draw some conclusions, for example someone who is completely incompetent could probably neither fill out a good application, nor be a good owner in an online league. My opinion is that the value of using detailed, formal applications to choose online owners is unknown.

05-10-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satchel
With all respect to Jase, this is another hypothesis. Is there a correlation between making a well-done OotP online league application and the activity or success of its submitting GM? One can draw some conclusions, for example someone who is completely incompetent could probably neither fill out a good application, nor be a good owner in an online league. My opinion is that the value of using detailed, formal applications to choose online owners is unknown.

From my _experience_ and only my own, I think it's very beneficial. You can tell so much about an owner from a detailed application.

You can somewhat accurately discern his age by his/her writing and so forth. You can see how disciplined he is: did he go the extra 10 yards to get in or did he just do the bare essentials?

What was the attention to detail? Then, what's the content of the actual application say about him? I ask for league histories and I check and see how many leagues a guy has been in. Does he carry a load more than 2-3? If so, I'm pretty iffy on letting them in because I'm greedy. I like my owners to put in 100% effort in my league. That means doing the extras as well as the required stuff.

Plus, if a guy hops around from league to league constantly, I automatically scratch him off.

Another thing I don't do is recruit for my league on these boards. I only recruit owner's I've worked with in other leagues or know personally. That way I've seen them in action... know the quality of GM they are etc...

That's just how I run things and I'm sure several other's run the same system. It works for me like a charm. I feel pretty confident once I bring a guy in that he's not going to be a flake.

Jase

John C · 05-10-2004, 10:56 PM

I do mine a different way, and it may rub some the wrong way.

I somewhat scout here. I don't hold a waiting list, unless someone comes to me. I don't advertise for spots if they open up. Now, I've had one opening in three seasons, and that was a very unusual circumstance. So I guess I don't really have to, because I've had one gentleman on the wait list for two seasons now, and he only sticks around because his namesake is a league superstar.

I look for people that stick out to me. I found YankeePride that way, and he's been nothing but a great owner since. That may seem elitist, and maybe it is; but I have a certain feel in my league, and that's guys who have been together for 5-6 years, some longer. I need to find a guy who's going to coexist with the current owners (they're a pretty easygoing bunch of guys, but they're very comfortable with each other; I feel it's my duty to make sure I don't put someone in who would upset that comfort); if they don't, it's almost guaranteed that they won't stay.

I've only had a couple of openings since I started the league anyway, and since it's a small league, chemistry is a major key to it succeeding. Therefore, this is why I do what I do.

I should add that I welcome anyone who takes the time to email me about openings, and that method is always enjoyed. If you take the time to check things out and email the commish about joining, that's a star in my book.

If you disagree with my methods, that's your right, and you're more than entitled to it. But it works for me and my league. And, to be honest, I've seen my share of people here that I wouldn't want to invite in my league. I've seen a lot of people I'd love to invite, but the league wasn't the type they were looking for. But I've seen more than enough to not hold open waiting list applications.

RebelYell · 05-10-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
Really? Can you give me some examples of "good" leagues with good commissioners folding?

Sure, Suicide Squeeze was a very good league that had this horrible habit of restarting all the time. Once it restarted under a different name even. I think it had three starts in all. Maybe the core group of owners just liked drafting.
That was the shame of it. The league was good and yet they kept starting it over.

DaveHorn · 05-11-2004, 02:23 AM

In HFTC I love it when I can fill openings with complete newbies to OOTP online play. We have 30 GMs so the occasional opening is inevitable. You would think there is a higher risk with new folks that they might flake out or whatever, but thus far, I don't think we've lost a single newbie.

Many of HFTC's best GMs were new when they started HFTC. Matter of fact, many of our founding GMs were new. Newbie GMs can inject new life into the league, sometimes by hitting the fourm with thought provoking questions about OOTP that the vets just don't think about anymore. They'll stay dedicated to their first league even as the addiction hits and they start to branch out into other leagues.

I don't turn down ootp vets, but all things being equal, I'll give somone completely new to online OOTP play preference over the vets. I would highly recommend any league to consider newbies sometimes. The risk can pay off for your league and you may help make the OOTP online community stronger. I wonder how many folks ditched OOTP online play because the first league they joined turned out to be a bad choice and terrible experience.

jazzrack · 05-11-2004, 04:20 AM

I am with dave on this one.

When I started CLB (it's a new league but i will not let it fail) I looked for a good mix of players. I cherry-picked a few, Looked for a few newbies, then I advertised for gm's. I planned for 3 first come first serve GM's and had a short review process for everybody else. It seems to have worked out well.

As to the Leagues closing issue. It happens, I don't find it a big deal. I wonder how many of the leagues closing just didn't have a plan. I know i spent months in planning and still have had a couple of small issues arise that i didn't consider or simply got overlooked.

In my plan I am expecting to lose 5 gm's over the course of the first season. I lost 2 before things got started (as in the plan) and would expect to lose 3 more before season end. I came to this conclusion after extensive research, so i wrote it into the plan. If i don't lose anymore, GREAT, but i am dealing with reality here. I run, a, ummmm, unique league and expect a shake-out period. I wonder how many leagues fold because they don't understand this fact of life.

on the other side of the coin, The AOBL has recently been restarted after the original comish had personal issue and suddenly had to excuse himself. The League sat dorment for a couple of months before some GM's steped up and brought it back to life.

Just like nature, only the strong survive.

jazzrack · 05-11-2004, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend

You look at league announcements like Akrobat’s FLASH or jazzrack’s Corporate League Baseball and compare them with the standard “New league open, many teams available, shoot me a PM” type announcement post of several other leagues and you can sort of spot which leagues will have a difficult chance of making it.

hey thanks LL,

Truth be told, I have a gm who writes those for me...

I write terrible adds

edit: i fixed that for you LL, it's CLB not CBL (I am in the CBL also, 1 small typo could have me all messed up)

IatricSB · 05-11-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John C
I don't know...you should see how well doodz can convert.

I talked to Stacy Bond recently, and he was all like "WATUP iM STACEEE WANNA JOYN MAH LEEG LOLZ~!!!1 1 IM SPICEE!"

It happens to the best of them.

wHUTZ WRNG WIT DA WAY i POST dOOD???????/////

John C · 05-11-2004, 12:40 PM

roffle

Matteo · 05-11-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Ben Music
WLB
Commissioner
GM - Moscow Red Warriors
- 2005 World Champs!
- 2010 EH Champs
- 2004, 2007,2008, 2009 Asia Champs
- 2006, 2011-2020 Chumps

Fixed that

fhomess · 05-11-2004, 03:28 PM

I think another good point out of the small business analogy is that sometimes small business just don't succeed due to market reasons beyond their control. You can have a great plan, you can execute it well, and you can be super-dedicated, and have something just blow up in your face. That's life. An OOTP league isn't nearly as big a deal as a small business venture, but I'm sure that there have been some leagues that simply folded for reasons outside of the realm of OOTP. Life happens, too.

uktaurusbulba · 05-11-2004, 03:38 PM

I could see frustration being the main reason for shutting down. Its not that hard to run a league, but it can be quite annoying when you have to constantly be worried about filling slots. Guys write you emails saying how excited they are, etc, and they bail a week later saying they are too busy. In my league, I have 3 or 4 close friends that are in it that are part of my core group which makes up a little more than half the league. The other teams in the league seem to change alot. Some of the owners never even export 1 time so I dont see the point.

I know some on here try to screen people but Ive had some guys write you an essay on why they want in only to bail a day or two later.

05-10-2004, 07:36 PM	#26
Aussie Mark Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Downunder Posts: 489	My take on this debate is that online leagues are like small businesses. Around 50% of small businesses fold within the first 12 months, usually because the owner hasn't done his research, hasn't the requisite experience, or the necessary skills to run an effective business. Small businesses (and hence online leagues) that last are well run, offer a unique or rare product/service, and provide good customer service. __________________ Cheers Mark

05-10-2004, 10:56 PM	#31
John C Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albion, RI Posts: 2,286 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	I do mine a different way, and it may rub some the wrong way. I somewhat scout here. I don't hold a waiting list, unless someone comes to me. I don't advertise for spots if they open up. Now, I've had one opening in three seasons, and that was a very unusual circumstance. So I guess I don't really have to, because I've had one gentleman on the wait list for two seasons now, and he only sticks around because his namesake is a league superstar. I look for people that stick out to me. I found YankeePride that way, and he's been nothing but a great owner since. That may seem elitist, and maybe it is; but I have a certain feel in my league, and that's guys who have been together for 5-6 years, some longer. I need to find a guy who's going to coexist with the current owners (they're a pretty easygoing bunch of guys, but they're very comfortable with each other; I feel it's my duty to make sure I don't put someone in who would upset that comfort); if they don't, it's almost guaranteed that they won't stay. I've only had a couple of openings since I started the league anyway, and since it's a small league, chemistry is a major key to it succeeding. Therefore, this is why I do what I do. I should add that I welcome anyone who takes the time to email me about openings, and that method is always enjoyed. If you take the time to check things out and email the commish about joining, that's a star in my book. If you disagree with my methods, that's your right, and you're more than entitled to it. But it works for me and my league. And, to be honest, I've seen my share of people here that I wouldn't want to invite in my league. I've seen a lot of people I'd love to invite, but the league wasn't the type they were looking for. But I've seen more than enough to not hold open waiting list applications. __________________ Facebook \| My Videos

05-11-2004, 02:23 AM	#33
DaveHorn All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,146	In HFTC I love it when I can fill openings with complete newbies to OOTP online play. We have 30 GMs so the occasional opening is inevitable. You would think there is a higher risk with new folks that they might flake out or whatever, but thus far, I don't think we've lost a single newbie. Many of HFTC's best GMs were new when they started HFTC. Matter of fact, many of our founding GMs were new. Newbie GMs can inject new life into the league, sometimes by hitting the fourm with thought provoking questions about OOTP that the vets just don't think about anymore. They'll stay dedicated to their first league even as the addiction hits and they start to branch out into other leagues. I don't turn down ootp vets, but all things being equal, I'll give somone completely new to online OOTP play preference over the vets. I would highly recommend any league to consider newbies sometimes. The risk can pay off for your league and you may help make the OOTP online community stronger. I wonder how many folks ditched OOTP online play because the first league they joined turned out to be a bad choice and terrible experience. __________________ Dave HFTC Commish

05-11-2004, 04:20 AM	#34
jazzrack Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: still kicking Posts: 3,229	I am with dave on this one. When I started CLB (it's a new league but i will not let it fail) I looked for a good mix of players. I cherry-picked a few, Looked for a few newbies, then I advertised for gm's. I planned for 3 first come first serve GM's and had a short review process for everybody else. It seems to have worked out well. As to the Leagues closing issue. It happens, I don't find it a big deal. I wonder how many of the leagues closing just didn't have a plan. I know i spent months in planning and still have had a couple of small issues arise that i didn't consider or simply got overlooked. In my plan I am expecting to lose 5 gm's over the course of the first season. I lost 2 before things got started (as in the plan) and would expect to lose 3 more before season end. I came to this conclusion after extensive research, so i wrote it into the plan. If i don't lose anymore, GREAT, but i am dealing with reality here. I run, a, ummmm, unique league and expect a shake-out period. I wonder how many leagues fold because they don't understand this fact of life. on the other side of the coin, The AOBL has recently been restarted after the original comish had personal issue and suddenly had to excuse himself. The League sat dorment for a couple of months before some GM's steped up and brought it back to life. Just like nature, only the strong survive. __________________ . "Never confuse composure for ease" Was once Head Cheese of Corporate League Baseball

05-11-2004, 12:40 PM	#37
John C Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albion, RI Posts: 2,286 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	roffle __________________ Facebook \| My Videos

05-10-2004, 01:14 PM	#22
Karen Lutz Ball Breaker Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada OOTPChampionships: 5 Posts: 898	the oversaturation of online leagues has been here since the beginning of time. There are no more leagues folding today than there was a week ago, or a month ago, or anytime before that. Anyone who has had the unfortuneate circumstance of being in a league or a few that fold simply has some bad luck. The only advice to give is that you either look for a long running league and hope it stays afloat, they aren't a guarentee, but they're more likely to last than ones that are just starting. But if you must join new ones, keep plugging away, eventually you will find a good one.

05-11-2004, 03:28 PM	#39
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,693	I think another good point out of the small business analogy is that sometimes small business just don't succeed due to market reasons beyond their control. You can have a great plan, you can execute it well, and you can be super-dedicated, and have something just blow up in your face. That's life. An OOTP league isn't nearly as big a deal as a small business venture, but I'm sure that there have been some leagues that simply folded for reasons outside of the realm of OOTP. Life happens, too. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

05-11-2004, 03:38 PM	#40
uktaurusbulba Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 240	I could see frustration being the main reason for shutting down. Its not that hard to run a league, but it can be quite annoying when you have to constantly be worried about filling slots. Guys write you emails saying how excited they are, etc, and they bail a week later saying they are too busy. In my league, I have 3 or 4 close friends that are in it that are part of my core group which makes up a little more than half the league. The other teams in the league seem to change alot. Some of the owners never even export 1 time so I dont see the point. I know some on here try to screen people but Ive had some guys write you an essay on why they want in only to bail a day or two later.