Pitcher potential or lack of

rwd59 · 04-29-2004, 10:41 AM

I just have a hard time believing that the dips system does a complete (i said good first, but then realized the bashers would line up to get at that word choice) job reflecting a pitchers ability in the historical import area at least. You can't tell me that there should be no pitchers in the top 100 prospects until you get below prospect 25. I nave yet to have a pitcher listed in the top 10 in 40 years of simming. I know, I could change to the old rating system but I didn't pay for new to go back to old (don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the game). It seems as though this makes pitching secondary to hitting and I don't think you will find many people involved in the game that feel that way in real life.

Henry · 04-29-2004, 10:43 AM

Take a breath. Testing continues as we speak, by the beta team as well as you. Development of the game continues. Time will improve features.

Henry

CareyScurry · 04-29-2004, 11:13 AM

Incidentally, there's nothing in DIPS (the theory - irrespective of the game's engine) that would suggest that pitchers can't/won't be top prospects.

rwd59 · 04-29-2004, 11:17 AM

Henry

I don't expect perfection and I know that Markus and the reest of the OOTP development team will continue to work on the game to make it the best it can be. I've read all the dips stuff and agree with some of the theory and disagree with parts. I am sure there is a fine line where things can work out and if it is there, Markus will probably find it in time. I just believe that presently, pitching is undervalued by the engine.

gordyhulten · 04-29-2004, 12:44 PM

FWIW, in my fictional league (gordy.hulten.home.insightbb.com), pitchers are #1, 9, 13, 15, 16, 20-25. I know historical is much different, but it sounds like it might be a problem with importing, rather than with DIPS or AI evaluation of pitchers or developement.

rwd59 · 04-29-2004, 01:31 PM

Thats possible. I only do historicals and I use Ankit's DB. It may have to do with importing. When I do the rookie draft, I have had batters with 80 out of 80 potential. I have never seen a pitcher above 58 of 80 potential.

Henry · 04-29-2004, 02:01 PM

rwd... I believe this is coded into the game this way....

First of all remember that talent is not static. It changes as well. I believe Markus may have simulated the fact that pitchers develop slower by starting them off lower on the talent scale. This way, the talent has to increase before the ratings can.

In my V6 test league I'll be checking this among other things. Follow the progress in the DYnaty thread.

Henry

rwd59 · 04-29-2004, 11:04 PM

Your is a fictional league, right? Things may work better for fictionals for all I know. I have no interest in fictional players only historicals. I keep changing the setup for historicals but have yet to find a way to make pitching nearly as valuable as hitting. I keep getting alot more great rated hitters and few if any pitchers each year. Maybe Tigerfans league will give me the info I desire. I'll take a look at both. Thanks!

rwd59 · 04-29-2004, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
rwd... I believe this is coded into the game this way....

First of all remember that talent is not static. It changes as well.

Correct me if I am wrong or if it has changed since v5 but aren't the ratings where a player is right now and the talent ratings where he "could" be at some later date (emphasis on the "could"). If so, then shouldn't his potential rating as given in the draft show just as well what he "could" be as compared to what a batter "could be"? Did ya understand that? Not sure I even did

. Bottom line: If the potential rating is showing what a player "could" be, then shouldn't there be some pitchers that have as good a potential for success as hitters do?

Slant · 04-30-2004, 01:09 AM

Research has shown in the MLB draft that batters are more of a sure thing than pitchers, relatively speaking. OOTP6 models this by giving pitchers lower talent ratings. Just like IRL, it makes more sense to draft batters than pitchers. Of course, you can change this in the settings with the player creation modifiers and/or the player development modifiers if you like.

This shouldn't be confused to meant that major-league level batters are worth more than major-league level pitchers. It just means that come draft time, its easier to tell which batters will be good than which pitchers.

04-29-2004, 12:44 PM	#5
gordyhulten All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 1,175	FWIW, in my fictional league (gordy.hulten.home.insightbb.com), pitchers are #1, 9, 13, 15, 16, 20-25. I know historical is much different, but it sounds like it might be a problem with importing, rather than with DIPS or AI evaluation of pitchers or developement. __________________ Gordy Hulten Owner / General Manager Red Willow Roadrunners -- Kennel Series Champions: 1951, 1959, 1964, 1965, 1972, 1975, 1980, 1982, 1983 Dog Days Baseball - "The World's Best Online OOTP League" Creator inactive: Republican League - OOTP 2009 Dynasty inactive: Republican League Dynasty - Version 2.0 inactive: Republican League Dynasty

04-30-2004, 01:09 AM	#10
Slant Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 257	Research has shown in the MLB draft that batters are more of a sure thing than pitchers, relatively speaking. OOTP6 models this by giving pitchers lower talent ratings. Just like IRL, it makes more sense to draft batters than pitchers. Of course, you can change this in the settings with the player creation modifiers and/or the player development modifiers if you like. This shouldn't be confused to meant that major-league level batters are worth more than major-league level pitchers. It just means that come draft time, its easier to tell which batters will be good than which pitchers. __________________ Boiler Room Project

04-29-2004, 10:41 AM	#1
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 933	Pitcher potential or lack of I just have a hard time believing that the dips system does a complete (i said good first, but then realized the bashers would line up to get at that word choice) job reflecting a pitchers ability in the historical import area at least. You can't tell me that there should be no pitchers in the top 100 prospects until you get below prospect 25. I nave yet to have a pitcher listed in the top 10 in 40 years of simming. I know, I could change to the old rating system but I didn't pay for new to go back to old (don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the game). It seems as though this makes pitching secondary to hitting and I don't think you will find many people involved in the game that feel that way in real life.

04-29-2004, 10:43 AM	#2
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Take a breath. Testing continues as we speak, by the beta team as well as you. Development of the game continues. Time will improve features. Henry

04-29-2004, 11:13 AM	#3
CareyScurry Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 109	Incidentally, there's nothing in DIPS (the theory - irrespective of the game's engine) that would suggest that pitchers can't/won't be top prospects.

04-29-2004, 11:17 AM	#4
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 933	Henry I don't expect perfection and I know that Markus and the reest of the OOTP development team will continue to work on the game to make it the best it can be. I've read all the dips stuff and agree with some of the theory and disagree with parts. I am sure there is a fine line where things can work out and if it is there, Markus will probably find it in time. I just believe that presently, pitching is undervalued by the engine.

04-29-2004, 01:31 PM	#6
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 933	Thats possible. I only do historicals and I use Ankit's DB. It may have to do with importing. When I do the rookie draft, I have had batters with 80 out of 80 potential. I have never seen a pitcher above 58 of 80 potential.

04-29-2004, 02:01 PM	#7
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	rwd... I believe this is coded into the game this way.... First of all remember that talent is not static. It changes as well. I believe Markus may have simulated the fact that pitchers develop slower by starting them off lower on the talent scale. This way, the talent has to increase before the ratings can. In my V6 test league I'll be checking this among other things. Follow the progress in the DYnaty thread. Henry

04-29-2004, 11:04 PM	#8
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 933	Your is a fictional league, right? Things may work better for fictionals for all I know. I have no interest in fictional players only historicals. I keep changing the setup for historicals but have yet to find a way to make pitching nearly as valuable as hitting. I keep getting alot more great rated hitters and few if any pitchers each year. Maybe Tigerfans league will give me the info I desire. I'll take a look at both. Thanks!