DIPS and Defense question.

Night2000 · 04-21-2004, 02:31 AM

Now that the OOTP6 engine is using the DIPS system. Is it safe to assume that having good defensive players, will have more of an effect on the outcome of the games? Will we finally have to make tough decisions such as playing a better hitter, who is a poor fielder. Or the great fielder, who isn't such a good hitter? Having to make these type of decisions, will definitely add to the challenge.

Jaksiel · 04-21-2004, 03:45 AM

I think it should....I could be completely off, of course.

dougaiton · 04-21-2004, 04:47 AM

Interestingly, they shouldn't have that much more of an effect on the game than previously, especially OOTP has always heighly weighted defense. The same number of hits should be generated regardless, and as I presume (like in OOTP5) there are a set number of plays that defense quality actually effects (i.e. 'running fast...drops in for a hit', 'tough play...can't get it'). I'm just thinking out loud here, so I may be completly off.

Crapshoot · 04-21-2004, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Night2000
Now that the OOTP6 engine is using the DIPS system. Is it safe to assume that having good defensive players, will have more of an effect on the outcome of the games? Will we finally have to make tough decisions such as playing a better hitter, who is a poor fielder. Or the great fielder, who isn't such a good hitter? Having to make these type of decisions, will definitely add to the challenge.

Pretty much what Doug said- OOTP has always valued defense highly, (see Jason Moyer's study on the subject), to the point of extreme overvaluation from my perspective. DIPS is certainly useful in helping to better under the impact of defense. One thing worth doing is adapting to your pitching staff- Mike Cameron's effect on a Schilling would be far greater than that on a Lowe...

BleedDodgerBlue · 04-21-2004, 05:49 AM

Off topic slightly, but as far as defense goes, am I the only one who's really not crazy about the number diving attempts on foul balls? I've seen some at-bats where that happens four or five times.

Or how about foul popups that players chase only to have them go 10 or 15 rows back? Wouldn't an experienced player know that ball probably isn't going to stay in play, if it's headed that far back?

I realize it's just dressing up a ball that didn't get put in play, but some of the defensive things I see happening in OOTP6 just drive me nuts. Heck, I'm not terribly crazy about the number of balls I see get hit over my outfielders' heads. Maybe that's something I'm doing wrong with defensive alignment, I dunno, but I see just a ton of doubles and triples that just aggravate the heck out of me.

Night2000 · 04-21-2004, 06:47 AM

Hmmm thanks for the input. I figured since DIPS takes into account just a pitchers K, BB, and HR. That the defense would play a more decisive role. As opposed to how the OOTP5 engine decided outs using the other pitchers ratings such as avoiding Runs, Hits, and Doubles..

draven085 · 04-21-2004, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
Pretty much what Doug said- OOTP has always valued defense highly, (see Jason Moyer's study on the subject), to the point of extreme overvaluation from my perspective.

Agreed. The defensive win share totals OOTP5 would generate didn't correspond particularly well with their real life counterparts. Isn't that discrepancy due to the main function of the 'avoid hits' rating being to artificially depress BABIP? In that sense, couldn't defensive abilities be considered more important with the new engine? Work with me, I'm sort of thinking aloud here.

scotto313 · 04-21-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by draven085
Agreed. The defensive win share totals OOTP5 would generate didn't correspond particularly well with their real life counterparts. Isn't that discrepancy due to the main function of the 'avoid hits' rating being to artificially depress BABIP? In that sense, couldn't defensive abilities be considered more important with the new engine? Work with me, I'm sort of thinking aloud here.

I was under this impression. I certainly hope it is true. I also hope that 1B defense will be more highly rated under DIPS. It would be unwise to implement DIPS without accurate defense correlation.

mad0die · 04-21-2004, 01:35 PM

Does a pitcher's GBall% now have more impact in the DIPS system as well?

BarryZito75 · 04-21-2004, 04:20 PM

Actually from what I can tell, defense highly effects team performance. I started out a league-wide draft with the CBL rosters. I drafted Roy Oswalt, Andy Pettitte, Ted Lilly, and Jason Davis for a rotation, my pen is pretty good with headliners Latroy Hawkins, Jose Valverde, and Billy Wagner. As my lineup I have Jason Giambi (DH), Doug Mientkiewicz (1B, 10), Mark Ellis (2B, 8), Pokey Reese (SS, 9), Geoff Blum (3B 6), Shannon Stewart (LF, 9?), Carl Crawford (CF, 9), and Alex Escobar (RF, 8?).

The team is around .700 through 50 games.

04-21-2004, 02:31 AM	#1
Night2000 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 716	DIPS and Defense question. Now that the OOTP6 engine is using the DIPS system. Is it safe to assume that having good defensive players, will have more of an effect on the outcome of the games? Will we finally have to make tough decisions such as playing a better hitter, who is a poor fielder. Or the great fielder, who isn't such a good hitter? Having to make these type of decisions, will definitely add to the challenge. __________________ http://night2000.blogspot.com/ This post has the Al Bundy and Homer Simpson stamp of approval!

04-21-2004, 04:47 AM	#3
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Interestingly, they shouldn't have that much more of an effect on the game than previously, especially OOTP has always heighly weighted defense. The same number of hits should be generated regardless, and as I presume (like in OOTP5) there are a set number of plays that defense quality actually effects (i.e. 'running fast...drops in for a hit', 'tough play...can't get it'). I'm just thinking out loud here, so I may be completly off. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

04-21-2004, 06:47 AM	#6
Night2000 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 716	Hmmm thanks for the input. I figured since DIPS takes into account just a pitchers K, BB, and HR. That the defense would play a more decisive role. As opposed to how the OOTP5 engine decided outs using the other pitchers ratings such as avoiding Runs, Hits, and Doubles.. __________________ http://night2000.blogspot.com/ This post has the Al Bundy and Homer Simpson stamp of approval!

04-21-2004, 01:35 PM	#9
mad0die All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 913	Does a pitcher's GBall% now have more impact in the DIPS system as well? __________________ Commish GUBA

04-21-2004, 03:45 AM	#2
Jaksiel Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Troy, NY Posts: 14	I think it should....I could be completely off, of course.

04-21-2004, 05:49 AM	#5
BleedDodgerBlue Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 42	Off topic slightly, but as far as defense goes, am I the only one who's really not crazy about the number diving attempts on foul balls? I've seen some at-bats where that happens four or five times. Or how about foul popups that players chase only to have them go 10 or 15 rows back? Wouldn't an experienced player know that ball probably isn't going to stay in play, if it's headed that far back? I realize it's just dressing up a ball that didn't get put in play, but some of the defensive things I see happening in OOTP6 just drive me nuts. Heck, I'm not terribly crazy about the number of balls I see get hit over my outfielders' heads. Maybe that's something I'm doing wrong with defensive alignment, I dunno, but I see just a ton of doubles and triples that just aggravate the heck out of me.

04-21-2004, 04:20 PM	#10
BarryZito75 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 102	Actually from what I can tell, defense highly effects team performance. I started out a league-wide draft with the CBL rosters. I drafted Roy Oswalt, Andy Pettitte, Ted Lilly, and Jason Davis for a rotation, my pen is pretty good with headliners Latroy Hawkins, Jose Valverde, and Billy Wagner. As my lineup I have Jason Giambi (DH), Doug Mientkiewicz (1B, 10), Mark Ellis (2B, 8), Pokey Reese (SS, 9), Geoff Blum (3B 6), Shannon Stewart (LF, 9?), Carl Crawford (CF, 9), and Alex Escobar (RF, 8?). The team is around .700 through 50 games.