Baseball fundamentals!

[sadangelclown]

Playing out games has made me realize that OOTP players really need to go back to little league-- they make the craziest fielding mistakes!! i.e., runners on first and second, ground ball to third base-- 3B steps on third then throws to FIRST. You throw to the closest possible force! Always! And then the game gets all sad that there wasn't a double play. MAYBE THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE THREW IT TO SECOND.

haha, I doubt it actually affects gameplay, but maybe some of this should be changed to more accurately depict baseball fundamentals.

[Whitey]

Not necessarily correct. In your situation the correct fundamental play could be to first if it is the third out. Plenty of time to get the batter but the runner from first has a jump. Depends on where the thirdbaseman fields the ball but if he goes to his right then you are looking at a 5-3 double play. If he is forced to his left then it would be a 5-4-3. Never use the word "always". Or "never" for that matter.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Was going to post the same thing, Whitey, then I thought, "maybe I'm not remembering Little League correctly." Glad you corrected this.

However, it's true that the game always has the fielder go to first, which is just as wrong as never going there.

[asamford]

i always use the word never. always.

going off-topic but this reminds me of a great Steve Martin bit:

"I spent many years studying with the maharishi, and on that last day as I was leaving he gave me the greatest piece of advice ever, that i've always kept with me and think about every day... he said never......no, wait, it was always... always carry a small trash bag in your car, you can throw your trash in it and then when it gets full you can just chuck it out the window."

[William4192]

Good Stuff!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by sadangelclown
Playing out games has made me realize that OOTP players really need to go back to little league-- they make the craziest fielding mistakes!! i.e., runners on first and second, ground ball to third base-- 3B steps on third then throws to FIRST. You throw to the closest possible force! Always! And then the game gets all sad that there wasn't a double play. MAYBE THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE THREW IT TO SECOND.

I used to play third base. In that situation, the guy at first usually has a lead and is off with the crack of the bat (if it's not a hit and run where he's off BEFORE the crack of the bat). Unless he is a slow runner, by the time I got the ball and stepped on third I had a choice - throwing to second to try and get the guy from first, who had a lead and was poised to go, or throwing across the diamond to first to try to get the batter.

At this point you have to look at where the runners are relative to the bases, their speeds, and remember how many outs there are, and what the game situation is. Two outs, game not close, fast runner from first near to second? First base. One out, game close, runner at second a bit slow or got a bad jump? Second base. Etc. etc. etc. - the situation isn't always simple. Plus, how much faith have you got in your arm? I had a cannon, but some third basemen don't and know that they don't and much prefer to make the shorter throw.

But you don't always throw to the closest available force, because making an automatic throw to a base when you have a low probablitilty of getting an out just because it's doctrine to throw there isn't smart baseball. Plus if I am reasonable sure that I can't get the guy at second out but am reasonably sure that I can get the guy at first out, well, screw it all, I'm throwing to first.

[BaseballMan]

another thing we are forgetting is that players are human and they make mistakes.
Sure we may know what they should do and they should know what to do but some players just have the talent and dont study the game of baseball or pay attention in practice.

So i cant say that it is really bad unless it happens all the time or to a team with good fielders. I mean if you have the 62 mets i guess you should expect dumb errors like this to happen more than normal. But if Brooks Robinson or Ozzie smtih is making these errors all the time then i would agree it needs to be fixed.

[Makakilo MooNs]

This is too easy...

[BleedDodgerBlue]

How about a scenario like this:

Bases loaded, bottom of the 9th (or any extra inning), tie ball game, 0 out. Sharp grounder hit to the 3rd baseman.

His first throw should be to the plate, since if the run scores, that's the ballgame.

I've had it happen on more than one occasion where he instead goes either for the 5-3 double play, or the 5-4-3 double play, which is nice, and all, but it also means we lose the game.

[Lawman71]

Always, Never.....gets you in trouble!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by BleedDodgerBlue
Bases loaded, bottom of the 9th (or any extra inning), tie ball game, 0 out. Sharp grounder hit to the 3rd baseman. His first throw should be to the plate, since if the run scores, that's the ballgame.

I've had it happen on more than one occasion where he instead goes either for the 5-3 double play, or the 5-4-3 double play, which is nice, and all, but it also means we lose the game.

Well, maybe the 3B realized there was no way that he could get the guy at the plate so he was trying to be nice and lower the pitcher's ERA by getting him two more outs.

[rpckvv]

bleeddodgerblue, i have had the SAME thing happen on numerous occasions...and in this case, you KNOW it affects the outcome of the ballgame...i think this needs to be addressed somehow...

home plate should always be the first option in a bases loaded situation (especially with the infield in, such as the case in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth / extra innings), and should always at least be attempted.

-peter

[ctorg]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
I used to play third base. In that situation, the guy at first usually has a lead and is off with the crack of the bat (if it's not a hit and run where he's off BEFORE the crack of the bat). Unless he is a slow runner, by the time I got the ball and stepped on third I had a choice - throwing to second to try and get the guy from first, who had a lead and was poised to go, or throwing across the diamond to first to try to get the batter.

At this point you have to look at where the runners are relative to the bases, their speeds, and remember how many outs there are, and what the game situation is. Two outs, game not close, fast runner from first near to second? First base. One out, game close, runner at second a bit slow or got a bad jump? Second base. Etc. etc. etc. - the situation isn't always simple. Plus, how much faith have you got in your arm? I had a cannon, but some third basemen don't and know that they don't and much prefer to make the shorter throw.

But you don't always throw to the closest available force, because making an automatic throw to a base when you have a low probablitilty of getting an out just because it's doctrine to throw there isn't smart baseball. Plus if I am reasonable sure that I can't get the guy at second out but am reasonably sure that I can get the guy at first out, well, screw it all, I'm throwing to first.

I played 3B in Little League, and I agree. I didn't have the best arm, but still chose 1B far more often than 2B. I'd say a good 9 times out of 10. Another factor is that you can more easily judge where the batter is along the 1B line than where the guy who was on first is. The extra little turn of the head can sometimes cost you, at least if your arm is not that good.

[Hammer755]

Holy Crap. This post is priceless.

Fit Dawg is complaining about BASEBALL FUNDAMENTALS in this situation. Watch a game sometime, Mr. Rust, the third to first double play is fundamental in this situation, unless as someone earlier said, the 3B is ranging to his left, in which case he would throw on to 2B for the 543 DP.

By stepping on the bag at 3B, your momentum is carrying you away from second base typically, so a runner taking a lead has a better than likely shot of beating a throw to second - much more so than the batter running to first. The only way that a throw to second would be an option would be if the 3B is playing just off the bag and the hitter smokes a screamer down the line. Any other situation, and the runner likely beats a throw to 2B.

[SpaceMonkey13]

I agree that u5, 5-3 DP is fundamental baseball.

Of course, I was at a Red Sox game several years ago where Gary Gaetti started <b>two</b> 5-4-3 <b>TRIPLE</b> plays. In one game. Don't think I've ever seen one since.

You could look it up!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Hammer755
the third to first double play is fundamental in this situation, unless as someone earlier said, the 3B is ranging to his left, in which case he would throw on to 2B for the 543 DP.

Not always.

[BleedDodgerBlue]

Originally posted by rpckvv
home plate should always be the first option in a bases loaded situation (especially with the infield in, such as the case in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth / extra innings), and should always at least be attempted.

Yeah. If nothing else, since it's a force at the plate, worst case you've still got the bases loaded with one out, and you can go for the double play again. Best case, you prevent the run, get the back half of the double play at first, and you've got 2nd/3rd with 2 out, and an open base that you can use to finesse the lineup a little bit.

Now, I could understand if it were a deep grounder to short or 2nd in innings 1-8, and the AI chose to go 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 instead and give up one run in the process. Depending on the score, it might be more worth doing that and limiting the amount of potential damage than to get an out at the plate, but maybe give up four runs (instead of, say, two) with one swing of the bat from the next hitter.

But yeah, the AI definitely needs to be tweaked so that in the bottom of crucial innings, bases loaded situations always go to the plate.

[ctorg]

Originally posted by BleedDodgerBlue
Yeah. If nothing else, since it's a force at the plate, worst case you've still got the bases loaded with one out, and you can go for the double play again. Best case, you prevent the run, get the back half of the double play at first, and you've got 2nd/3rd with 2 out, and an open base that you can use to finesse the lineup a little bit.

Now, I could understand if it were a deep grounder to short or 2nd in innings 1-8, and the AI chose to go 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 instead and give up one run in the process. Depending on the score, it might be more worth doing that and limiting the amount of potential damage than to get an out at the plate, but maybe give up four runs (instead of, say, two) with one swing of the bat from the next hitter.

But yeah, the AI definitely needs to be tweaked so that in the bottom of crucial innings, bases loaded situations always go to the plate.

Actually, best case would be if the runner on 2nd trips and you can throw to third and get him, or maybe even get a triple play. But that would be kind of unusual.

[BaseballMan]

well remember we are talking about one play. Lets face it not every 3B is going to do the same thing though a majority probably will. For me i see nothing wrong with it in ootp unless it happens way too much. I wouldnt like the game to be like the fielder always throws to the correct base. I like the fact that some players make mistakes other than just errors.

[BleedDodgerBlue]

Sorry, no. There are some situations where the third baseman's first instinct should ALWAYS be towards a particular type of play. Whether or not he's SUCCESSFUL is another matter entirely. The throw might be offline, the runner might have been moving with the pitch and beat the throw, whatever.

But there's no good reason to be trying for a 6-4-3 double play with the bases loaded and nobody out in the bottom of the 9th or 10th or 11th, etc. Remember a year or two ago, the Giants cut a guy for making a seriously boneheaded blunder on the basepaths? I guarantee you that unless the player making a defensive error of this magnitude were a star (like, Bonds, or Pujols), he would absolutely find himself cut or demoted for doing something like that.